Can You Simulate a Corporate Event Before It Happens? Tonje Bakang Says Yes

Jordan:0:00
Welcome back to the High Tech Assistance Podcast. Everyone please welcome the winner and only Tonjay McCain. Tonjay, how you doing today?

Tonje Bakang:0:06
Hi, hi guys. I'm really excited to be here. We had a right before you pressed the button record and now I want to keep this energy going.

Jordan:0:17
Absolutely, absolutely. Really quick before we dive in, can you please tell us kind like what you do, who you serve and yeah, just at a very high level.

Tonje Bakang:0:27
Yeah, so I'm a second time YC founder. And one thing I'm really passionate about is human interactions and human connections. And today with Moots.ai, we help companies who organize invite-only events to figure out who should be in the room. How can they provide the most value to their guests? Like, for instance, you go to a networking event. How can...

They make sure that you meet the right people there. The people that can advance your business, advance your career. And of course, those companies are organizing events because they try to maintain the relationship with their partners, their clients, and obviously to do some business. So we are building these guest intelligence platforms. This is a new category that is transforming how companies invest in events and how they track the outcome of this investment.

Jordan:1:24
Yeah, I was taking a look at your website and I don't know any other companies that provide the service or the in-depth knowledge from their guests attending the conference or the event the way that Moots does. Where did this idea come from? Yeah, go for it.

Tonje Bakang:1:38
Yeah, it- So twofold. The first one was me as a guest, right? Being frustrated to go to an event. So you go to an event. have to, as a busy CEO, you have to figure out how to dedicate time for the event. Then you have to park. Then you have to do all those things. And then you go to the event. And quite frankly, you don't go for the programming most of the time. You go for the rule. but you end up meeting people randomly because you sit next to the buffet or the bar and you were not able to capitalize on the value of the room, right? So as a guest, was, and I'm still very frustrated. Then when I started to talk to company hosting events, and we're talking about like financial institutions, brands, law firms, consulting companies who... realized that online advertising, call emailing, everything digital is not the way to go in this AI era where people can spam you. And so it's hard to get the attention of their own community. So they doubled down on events, but for them it was very difficult to be able to track. to do the attribution. Okay, we invited those people at this event and okay, what is the outcome on the bottom line? And I was willing to combine my solution for the companies, but also making sure that this solution enabled them to amplify the guest experience. So this is really how this all came together. And then...

Tonje Bakang:3:33
I think it was only possible for me to develop with my team this new technology because of the last advancement in AI. This thing that we are doing that we are totally impossible or out of reach a few years ago, a few months ago, there's something amazing that we are doing. every time I am doing a demo, like the... our prospect and our client go crazy. We're able to simulate an event before the event happen. So we're able to use the data we have about their contacts. So it's like what we call their guest database. It could be like guests who attended an event or people that are in their network. And for each of them, We enrich their profile so we know more than just the name and the address. We know everything about them, like a lot. We have about 2,000 lines of content about each person. And we use that to create digital twins. And so when you create digital twins, and so why it's important for us is the digital twin is mostly data, right? It's like an AI agent. We're able to...

Jordan:4:47
Visual twin.

Tonje Bakang:5:01
simulate an event, let's say this company wants to do an event about this topic. Then we can figure out, who in their database will be interested by this topic? And how they will react to this topic and all this programming and should we tweak the programming to be able to better engage with them, right? And so this type of simulation, like creating the event, creating a simulation and prediction tool. is just unheard of. And that's why for us, guest intelligence is a totally new category that we had to create to be able to serve the future of events, especially corporate events.

Jordan:5:46
Yeah. I was saying, I was looking at your website and even the mock data that you showcase, I'm sure you have way more enrichment tools that you obviously keep internally, but just the example data that you had on your website, was like, how the hell this dude, how, like, how did you get this? How does it even happen? And it's like, who would I want to meet at the show or not the show? Who would I want to meet at the event, right? Where are they sitting? All, all this, all this really, really cool stuff. I don't want to ask you like, how do you do it? Cause obviously proprietary.

But...

Tonje Bakang:6:17
Yeah, but I'm to share some stuff. First, again, a lot is already out there. Think about it. We are working with companies that already have relationships with people in their database. So it means that they already use HubSpot, Salesforce to create an internal profile. So we have this information. Then we are focusing on corporate events. So it means that the people usually who go to those events have some presence online because of their work, what they do, and that's why they are like memorable and notable and that's why like those companies. So it's kind of, there's a ton of information out there. Then we have an app for the guest. And the more the guests add information about their goal, what we want to achieve at this particular event, the better is. we can match them with things that will amplify their experience. Keep in mind that as a founder and CEO, I want to support the company's hosting events. But my goal is also to support the guests, right? There's no event where the company is winning if the guests don't have the best experience. Again, we're talking about events where... the guests have enough money to buy their own food. They're not coming for the food. They're not coming for the drinks. Most of the content, to be honest, is often available online. So if you make the effort to come, it's for something else. They come for the people. They come for the direct interaction.

Jordan:8:01
That's so interesting because I've gone to plenty of events and I always ask myself, I wonder who's going to be in this room. You know, like I wish I knew more about the audience that was going to be there. And when, when did you, I guess, found the company or start the company? If that's a better question.

Tonje Bakang:8:07
Yeah.

Tonje Bakang:8:17
So the product itself, it's quite new. We've been working on it for about like early 2025 and it's only, I think in November that we unveiled the product. But when it comes to the company itself, we went through YC in winter 22 and...

You know, like, I don't want to go too long in my entrepreneurial journey, but I think your audience know that you go through many pivots, right? You go through many pivots, you try things, and you have some traction. Sometimes you don't have traction. So I started with a digital bank for creators. I was blessed enough to have amazing investors on my cap table. But this thing didn't work, right? Then we pivoted to something else.

But what is interesting is even with the bank, and we have the credit card and everything, I built a bank in three months, right? I know how to build systems. But what is interesting is events was at the core of my strategy. So I was still, I was based in SS at the time, but I still had to go to LA and New York to host events. And again, I was making sure that before the event, the guests had access to the guest list. It was something that really important for me and that's why my events were always successful because even before the event, my guests were able to prepare, right? And to be able to target who we wanted to focus on and those things. So it was totally natural for me to, when I had the opportunity to, actually asked myself, Tange, what do you want to do with the money left in your bank accounts? the goal was clear for me. I wanted to focus on supporting how founders and builders network. The byproduct is now I'm helping the companies organizing the best events, right?

Tonje Bakang:10:40
The second thing I wanted to go full in AI. And so today I'm like a kid that is building on his best company ever, learning about the best technology ever. And every day I can empower companies getting a better outcome of their investment, but also have attendees who finally are like, OK.

This event was my time.

Jordan:11:13
I feel the exact same way because what we utilize internally is essentially what we install for other clients as well. It's an AI SDR, simply put, don't want to bore you with it. But I feel the exact same way with all of the data that we could enrich, the automation process, the client results that we're providing. And I definitely do feel like a kid in a playground because it's really fun. It's always changing. I'm always adapting. It's definitely fun.

I also think whenever you are hosting an event and your guests have a great experience, what are they probably going to do? Tell their friends, attend the next event, you know, they're going they're going to come back. So not only can you earn more revenue from the event hosting standpoint, I think it also builds goodwill. think, you know what I mean? Like, positive feedback, people telling their friends or their other coworkers, cetera, about how cool this event was. mean, that's, that's never going to hurt.

Tonje Bakang:12:00
Yep.

Jordan:12:11
reputation. That's never a bad

Tonje Bakang:12:12
But think about it like a private bank or a bank doing like &A, right? Hosting a breakfast, a lunch, a gala event with their clients and partners. And let's say you're one of them. You go to the event and your ICOD manager introduces you to three interesting other guests, right? People you can do business with. What are you gonna do after this? First you're gonna like... make business with them, and you might use the bank to help with the transaction. But then you would do some referral. You would talk about this bank to your network and bring a new client to the bank. So what you describe is like, yes, referral is also something that big companies work with, expect when they host events. But right now they are. not able to track it because they're not able to actually track the value they are providing to the attendees. And the other issue that happen often is they run an event and the event doesn't have any guest intelligence. And all their deals are going through, let's say Salesforce, Houseport, or like another CRM. And there's no connection between the tools.

So we're not able to say like, okay, we increase our deals pipeline or we reinforced our relationship with this client, but what contributed to this? we're like, we might know it in the head, right? But there's nothing that is trackable. So we help with that.

Jordan:14:02
I think you've brought up something important where it comes with networking at the corporate level. You and I were talking off camera and you and I kind of both got excited about this. Can you please elaborate for people who would love to become better networkers, I mean, even not at the corporate level, how can you actually shake hands with a really important person and not embarrass yourself? Like how do you network at the highest level basically?

Tonje Bakang:14:27
So for me, it's always like, what do you bring when you enter the room? It's not like about what you extract, it's what do you bring? And are you someone that is interesting to talk with? Are you someone that's like people enjoy go to a dinner, one-on-one dinner and have in-depth conversation? Are you the person who are sending to your network interesting content that you read online? or interesting videos. I'm not talking about memes, right? I'm talking about something interesting that will elevate your friends or your colleagues, And the people who actually win when it comes to networking at those events are people who will engage with you and before even asking you what do you do in life, right? Or pitching their company. they would find a topic that will resonate with them and engage at a human level, right? Because...

If people like you, like the way you think, and you demonstrate the fact that you're smart, but there's a lot of people that are smart, that you're interesting, that you have an opinion, right? That you have an angle that is unusual. People will be like, I will remember you. I will remember this conversation. Actually, let's have a call, let's have a follow-up.

Because I think I'm kind of an architect when it comes to networking and human connections, I spend a lot of time thinking about it. And what happened often with me is the first time I meet someone, I don't even tell them what I do. So we connect at a human level, I ask a lot of And generally because I'm interested. I'm interested in other people human experience.

Tonje Bakang:16:41
So I ask a lot of questions. And what happened often is then we schedule a call because we just want to continue the conversation. And in the second call they ask me, oh, by the way, what do you do? What do you do because I want to support what you do? And so those are the best interactions.

Jordan:17:01
We're humans at the end of the day. Sure, we have jobs or careers, passion projects, but at end of the day, we're humans. We have family, friends, things we care about, opinions we have. And I think you and I were talking, but if you, I guess, reframe or hold your opinions in, you unfortunately are now the boring guy or the boring girl. Even if your opinion is unpopular.

Tonje Bakang:17:26
Yeah.

Jordan:17:28
or it may differ from the rest of the crowd. I mean, this is separate from like knowing your audience, but just in general, I think you should probably have the bravery, have the confidence to express how you feel. Not only are you...

I guess empowered with your own self-expression, but people will be drawn to you more. think like, I'll paint a picture. There's this person, his name is Wes Watson on YouTube. He was a fitness trainer. Now he's not a good human being, but because he was authentically himself and he voiced his opinion, I'm like, I like this guy. This is how I think, but he just has the courage to fricking say it, you know? And that's how we like gained his following. Anyways.

Tonje Bakang:18:12
No, but like to your point, let's stay here for one second. I think that it's about being memorable, right? Then you can agree or disagree on the person, but you like, at least like, I remember this person and keep in mind, there's eight billion of us on earth. So for me to remember you, you have to be special. Some people forget that. They think that just being in the room is enough.

Jordan:18:12
I like, okay.

Tonje Bakang:18:40
just having the right information is enough. But we're about to enter a world where there's an abundance of information. And so information is not enough.

Tonje Bakang:18:57
It's the way you represent this information. It's the way you see the world that is a bit different, that is interesting. So even if you're in a room where your opinion is not popular, what is interesting is your reasoning. Show us how you came to this conclusion. And we might disagree. The goal is not to agree. But I want to see how you think. since we are more... we are using more AI tools every day, people start to think less. And I think one of the way to excel at corporate events is to show your level of thinking. So again, that's why I always think about the setup of intimate dinner.

And by the way, the best event hosted by those companies are dinners where there's like less than 10 people. And if you know how to navigate this type of environment, you win.

Jordan:20:09
But where did that experience come from for you personally? I can't imagine that you're born into all these cool rooms. You gotta network your way to be famous.

Tonje Bakang:20:17
So, so, so you can hear my, my, my French accent. I was born and raised in Paris. I have six siblings and I'm about in the middle. I think, and my, my, parents are educated and pretty successful in their own field. So, the intellectual stimulation was always there, right? One thing that helped me a lot is I had to find my own voice surrounded by brothers and sisters who all of them had opinions, right? And so it forced myself as a young age to express my needs, to also being clear when I disagreed. with my brothers and sisters to be strong when I was willing to sacrifice things in order to get to my goals. And so this really shaped who I am today. And I think I'm a Scorpio too, so maybe it helps too. I'm a Scorpio, so maybe just...

Jordan:21:34
You're a what? You're a what? What was the last word?

Jordan:21:41
Got you. Out of curiosity, when did you come to the States?

Tonje Bakang:21:45
it's funny because I- know, growing up, I was reading US magazines, especially like hip hop magazines. I was, was fond of like hip hop music, but I was not reading like the pages about like the culture. I was reading like at the end of those magazines, like the source XXL, pages about business. And I was like, inspired by those artists

Jordan:22:01
For sure.

Tonje Bakang:22:21
owning their own label, music label, owning their own fashion brand. So I was like reading this and for me it was like an illustration of what I could do in the future, not necessarily in the entertainment industry, but have ownership and business, you know? And so I was like, one day I'll go to the US because what I'm seeing in in the US is not the city. I don't have this type of representations in Europe. I actually came to the US when I created my first company in the US. after being accepted to Y Combinator in 2015, I went to the program. It was summer 15. I moved to Mountain View and it was a very interesting experience. think what I love about the US And I know I'm privileged. I know it's not like all Americans that have access to what I access to, right? I know I'm privileged and blessed. The access here are amazing. If you know how to play your cards, sky is the limit.

And you have to play with your uniqueness. So you have to figure out what's unique about you and play that card again and again and again again and again. No matter if some people can be, you know, like against you because you're too different. But I feel like there's a... there's the opportunity to leverage your difference.

Jordan:24:19
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of getting back to becoming interesting, what are some things that people can do to make themselves more interesting? Or what if you feel like, I guess this comes down to like self-confidence and actually viewing reality. But what if someone is like, there's nothing cool about me. I'm just like an average Joe, blah, blah, blah. But we all know that's kind of a lie. Like there's definitely unique things about you choosing to put your blinders on and not see. But excluding that, what are some things that a human being could do to make themselves more interesting?

Tonje Bakang:24:39
Yeah.

Tonje Bakang:24:48
Yeah, but there's some people that are boring. Let's be honest, I cannot like, there's some people that are boring because they are boring because they look like, think like everyone else in their community. So it's hard to, they're not that memorable, right? They might be amazing human beings, but they're not memorable.

There's something really easy to become someone interesting. Just read books. It's not hard. Just read books. That's it. You listen to podcasts, they often mention books. Just read them. And reading the summary is not enough. Read the full book because there's way more. If someone spends the time to write a 300 pages book, It's obviously because there's details that are very important. The second thing is you have to go out of your comfort zone. You have to go out there, meet new people. It's uncomfortable at first, but then you learn how to, you increase your emotional intelligence. And so you start to ask, the right questions. Don't ask boring questions. Don't ask things that are obvious. We all go through this human experience, which is life, just once. And I can imagine Jordan, for you to be here today, having this podcast. How long are you?

Jordan:26:36
27.

Tonje Bakang:26:37
27. So I'm sure you've been through a lot.

You know, the good, the bad, but you went through a lot. So for me, I interact with you, spend an hour together, and I thank you for what I am saying. But in order to get here, you had 27 years of life, of happiness, of sadness, of lesson learned, right? And you also have hope for the future, And dreams. So this is super interesting, right?

And we can spend like a full weekend talking about this. I'm 45 years old. So I also come with a lot of baggage and I traveled the world and I met interesting people and I'm lucky enough to be with you here. So there's no space for us to ask boring questions and stay just, you know, low level or surface level.

Jordan:27:37
The missile had a sense. No, no, thanks for bringing that up. Hopefully this is not a boring question for you, but where do you see the future of Moots?

Tonje Bakang:27:47
So the feature of moods is associated with the feature of events, right?

Companies are doubling down on in-person convenings, in person like, it could be like intimate or big events, but after COVID and this boom of online gatherings, people are going like the opposite way. They want... to connect, they want to build memories together. And it's funny because the same way, when you write something by hand, you will better memorize it. When you meet people in person, the relationship will be stronger, right? So we are clearly growing fast and I think we'll grow faster. I want to focus solely on corporate events. I'm not trying to go to other type of events like B2C or sports. I think that the corporate event market is really underserved when it comes to intelligence. What would be super interesting for us in the future is how do we scale into other culture? What does it mean for us to penetrate the Chinese market, for instance? where there's a lot of different nuances and the way for instance we are simulating, we simulate events will be totally different, that I'm super excited. And maybe something I wanna do in the upcoming year is to host some private events ourselves. I think it's important. And when it comes to, I know you didn't ask the question, but I will still.

Tonje Bakang:29:52
I asked the question myself, when I think about the future of events, I think that, and I can see it already, companies will have their own private membership clubs. They will operate like this. They won't have a physical location. But you can imagine that a company like financial institution like Blackstone or Chip Morgan going to the events,

Jordan:29:54
Yeah, for sure.

Tonje Bakang:30:22
is very prestigious, it's very exclusive, and you want to be part of this kind of like membership club, right? And the status, but also access to the information, access to the people. And right now, the way they host their event is mostly like one-off, except when they have a big conference. And what I...

Jordan:30:34
the status.

Jordan:30:40
Okay.

Tonje Bakang:30:51
I predict, but also I'm biased because I'm an insider, so I some information. I feel like these companies will operate like membership clubs. when you look at, you go to LinkedIn and you look like their organic gram, they all have like a team running events and a team running like investor relationships and stuff. So it's going that direction.

Jordan:31:24
How does Moot's plan on capitalizing that?

Tonje Bakang:31:28
Building more features, right? Building more features. We already have something that can support this at a basic level. But the way we are able to move fast is when a client, a user is...

Jordan:31:32
Good, good, what? I'm sorry.

You

Tonje Bakang:31:57
has a specific use case, then we put our resources and in about a week, we are trying to ship something that is, you know, like solving that problem and we try to go above and beyond.

Jordan:32:14
As someone who kind of owns a technology company, kind of, is Moots VC funded? Or did you take the capital from the previous funding and then just roll it over to Moots?

Tonje Bakang:32:28
Yeah, it's the same entity, it's the same like corporation. it's, yeah, yeah, same thing. And I don't know if your audience is really interested in like ventures, funds and stuff. I think they are. For me, even if my initial investors invested in the previous version of this company, they are amazing investors. They supported me during the different periods. And so there's...

Jordan:32:32
same thing? Okay.

Tonje Bakang:32:57
There's this sense of loyalty, even if it's the business relationships, right? So I no reason to change the company. want them to be, like investors invest in you, in your potential. So they don't really care if you build one product or another. They just want you to be successful because if you're successful, they are successful. So that's why it's the same.

Jordan:33:23
What was that process like? Because I'm actually really contemplating pitching V-suits for what I have. I guess what was that process like? What did you do? How did you source?

Tonje Bakang:33:32
So again, I'm one of the like where entrepreneurs who went through YC to Y Combinator. So again, it's like going to Harvard or the best of the best of the best. But the advice I can share that might be helpful for. most entrepreneurs out there and maybe you is before raising funds, you have to understand what games VCs are playing because the game we play as an entrepreneur is not the same game that the VC plays, right? So the incentives are different. So first, like studies that game, what do they say to their LPs? The LPs are the people who invest in the VC funds, right?

So what type of return do we expect? Because based on the return they expect, it informs you about the type of exits your company must do to be interesting for them. So they know that maybe like 20 % of their portfolio will have a positive exit.

And this exit, those exits have to cover the 80 % that did nothing, right? And then still 100 or 100x or 1000x the investment. So if you come with a project that is not meeting the expectation, if you're part of the like 20%, your success has to be so big in terms of return.

Jordan:35:07
That's right.

Tonje Bakang:35:29
that is covering not just the investment they made in you, but also like 80 % of their portfolio. So if the type of product you build is not able to provide this, for them, no matter the industry, I'm not even talking about what you actually do, I'm talking about just about return, then you see the misalignment, right?

Jordan:35:53
Definitely makes me think a bit harder. I will say there is no other company like Moots unless I just don't have the lack of awareness. But please correct me if I'm There's no other company like Moots, right?

Tonje Bakang:36:04
There's none.

What you have in the market are companies that help with the logistics. So RSVP, check-in and so on. The guest intelligence and what we do, we are the first and that's why I intend to actually own this category. you... Please, call this episode... guess intelligence. It's good for us. And people will see, okay, one of the first plays where we actually call this term is your podcast.

Jordan:36:46
I I'm definitely open to it for sure. That might help with, I'm not sure if your potential customers or potential clients like utilize LLMs for chat purposes like research opposed to Google, but I know.

Tonje Bakang:36:58
they do, they do, they do, they do. Yeah, yeah, GEO, I'm deep in GEO, right? People don't necessarily know what GEO is, but it's really how to optimize search on LLMs. I'm... Yeah.

Jordan:37:12
Yes. I'm going all in on that right now. So kudos to you, Becca. I think, okay, this might be a dumb question, but from the perspective, client's perspective, how does this benefit me? And why would I sign up for Moots?

Tonje Bakang:37:16
You

Tonje Bakang:37:30
Yeah. Yeah. So today you spend, type of clients we have spend between a million to like up to 10 to 20 million in events per year. And we just don't know like why we invite all the invites and we don't see the outcome.

Jordan:37:55
But with Moots, we can see the outcome of like who was invited, the data intelligence. Would we be able to tell like who connected with who? I think you said that earlier, right? We can see the outcome of the event, whether it was a referral, new business, things like that.

Tonje Bakang:38:00
Yeah.

Tonje Bakang:38:05
Yes, yes. Yeah. or through the app we are for the guests,

Jordan:38:13
That's really cool. Okay. You don't have to get into details here, but what would this cost me?

Tonje Bakang:38:19
As a company? Yeah, it's just like 250 per seat, right? And then it includes like a usage, a number of tokens. But if you go like above, then we charge you by usage and basically the token. So if you come and your database, there's about a million people we have to enrich and do like the digital twins and you run.

Jordan:38:21
Sure, yeah.

Jordan:38:26
Okay.

Tonje Bakang:38:47
globally with all your teams like many simulations per day, will cost more.

Jordan:38:55
Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I know all about tokens. I use cloud code on a daily and

Tonje Bakang:38:58
Yeah, we love it. We love love Claude. You see now now everyone has a French friend because Claude is a French name the way it is spelled. So now you see being French in tech is cool.

Jordan:39:02
absolutely. That's my bestie.

Jordan:39:16
That's actually pretty badass. I did not know that. Maybe you can actually shed some light on this. I used to live in South America, Mexico to be exact. And I feel like...

Obviously, I'm grateful to live in America. But I also feel like that the world, excluding America, like is more like aware and they have the desire to work with other countries, opposed to America kind of only wanting to work with America. You run up working with China and that inspires you. And I'm like, dude, I feel like people out here don't even think about that. But you're thinking that your level of awareness is like 10x, 100x, 1000x. I'm like the average person here.

You know, I'm not sure if that's even a question, but it's just something that I've noticed living out of the country and obviously living here. I'm sure you've heard that,

Tonje Bakang:40:09
Yeah, yeah, can share my take on this. So again, I always start by saying that I'm privileged, right? I've been able to add a family who came originally from Cameroon. And then my parents went to study in France in Paris. So just even before I was born, this idea of this interconnected world, was part of my DNA, right? I knew that you can start somewhere and go in another country for opportunities or, you know, like education. Then I've been able to travel the world and also I grew up in a city, Paris, where you have people from all over the world, right? So for me it was natural to be exposed to other cultures and again, not just be exposed to other cultures, but be interesting, asking questions, right? So when you mentioned the US and the population here, I live in a bubble. And I want to admit, I live in a bubble where around me people are driven. They have projects. They are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals. And so...

I'm surrounded by people from all over the world. again, right now live in New York. Before that, I was living in San Francisco where I'm today. And I spend a lot of time in Los Angeles. This is not a representation of America. I know pretty well that America is more than those big cities, right? I've met people doing some trips in other smaller cities in the US. We never went to New York.

And I want to say, we are not 20, we are like 40 and so on. And I was like, oh, interesting. You've never been to New York. And it's not a question of not being able to afford to go to New York, because there's companies, but it's really cheap to go to New York. But we don't even have the interest to go to New York. And I was like, Is this strange for me? Yes. And so it's like, how do you make people?

Tonje Bakang:42:36
being interested in exploring more. Like it's not because you are watching documentaries or news about New York or Washington DC or that you actually know the thing, right? And so there's this thing about being exposed to new cultures, being able to see that if it's like, 8 billion people or let's 7 billion people living outside of your continent and having great life. It means that maybe some things work also there, right? You know, it's like when people tell me, oh, don't go to this country, it's very dangerous, country X. I'm like, yeah, but you know, like there's still like 60 million people living there. So I guess some people have a good life, right? So.

Jordan:43:34
Right.

Tonje Bakang:43:36
Like I'm sure this pockets where I can be safe there, right?

Jordan:43:39
sure. Do you think America has propagandized, or that's probably a horrible word, but you know news channels, etc. media say that we probably shouldn't leave, you know?

Tonje Bakang:43:54
should live where? The US? So I don't know about, so I think that I grew up outside of the US and most of the content we are watching was produced in the US. So I always seen the US as a very interesting place because my entertainment, my music, everything was at least like 70 % American, right?

Jordan:43:55
Should not, should not, yeah, should not leave.

Tonje Bakang:44:24
and gave me the curiosity to come here to visit. I think that here you're less exposed to foreign content. I think Netflix is doing a great job to bring content produced overseas, and now you have people interested in going to Korea or Japan because they watch content, right? To go to Europe because they watch like, immediately in Paris. It's still like the... upper middle class wanting to travel because you also have a part of the population that is afraid, that they don't know that they can navigate an environment where people don't speak their language. I'm like, this chat, GBT, like people speak English, also.

Jordan:45:18
I grew so much as a person. When I moved to Mexico, basically by myself, and obviously I don't speak, not obviously, but I don't speak Spanish. I grew so much as a human being. Like putting yourself in the most uncomfortable environment, networking with people, you know, making friends, obviously not knowing how the hell to speak the native language. Like I grew as a human and I thought that was super cool. Do you think it's at a fundamental level, like,

Tonje Bakang:45:25
Hmm.

Jordan:45:43
The growth mindset versus fixed mindset, we're like, growth, I want to go to New York. I want to go out of the country. I want to learn new things. I want to expose myself to more cultures. Or the fixed, again, simple terms, fixed mindset, where it's like, no, I like my bubble. I'm cool in Utah as an example. I don't want to go outside of this. Do you feel like, at a fundamental human level,

Tonje Bakang:46:02
So I can talk about the pill I chose. It was like red pill and blue pill. And the blue pill would be like the growth mindset. I think for me, I couldn't be where I am today, have this conversation with you, if I was just comfortable in Paris doing what I was doing there. And Paris is a great city. People would die to go to Paris. But I was like, I just want more, And I always talk about this image I have is there's an apple tree and then when it's the season, there's new apples, right? And then they just drop on the floor, right? You want to be stuck there all your life, close to the tree, when you have the world to explore? So that's my philosophy and that's why...

Jordan:46:56
No.

Tonje Bakang:47:01
I love to connect with people, that's why I ask questions, that's why I want to help people connect, that's why I want to know about your upbringing and potentially like... Like, leave this experience to yours, And be more aware about what I don't know and maybe you visit, right?

Jordan:47:24
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for all the insights, all the knowledge, your philosophy, your beliefs on the podcast. Is there anything that you want to leave for sure? Anything you want to leave the people with or maybe leave your potential client with?

Tonje Bakang:47:33
thank you.

Tonje Bakang:47:41
that we entering an era where people value even more connections. Not necessarily community, people use the term community too much, but like connections. And this is what will make or break your business. Because when it comes to the product itself or the service you're offering, it's gonna be competitive, people will use the same tools. And so the difference between products would be the relationship we have with the person who actually owns the business, or the team of the group of people who own the business. So right now, invest in those relationships, because that's what will make the difference moving forward.

Jordan:48:33
That's some great advice right there. Thank you, my friend. Audience, it was a pleasure having you listen. And my friend, Tonje, yes sir. Again, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. Absolutely.

Tonje Bakang:48:45
Thank you for having me.