What Companies Get Wrong Before They Even Touch AI

Ryan:0:01
Welcome back to the [High Ticket AI Systems] podcast where we talk about all things client acquisition, scaling, marketing, sales, AI, and everything else in between. Everyone, please welcome the one and only Douglas Longnecker. Doug, welcome to the show, my friend.

Doug Longenecker:0:17
Hey Ryan, happy to be here and just thanks for for having me on. Appreciate it.

Ryan:0:22
More than welcome. Very excited and I'm looking forward to diving into everything that Next is doing. But for the people who may not already know, who haven't done their research, please give us some background on exactly who you are and what your company next really does at its core.

Doug Longenecker:0:33
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:0:39
Yeah, well my name's Doug Longenecker. I'm the founder of of Next and man, it feels like we've been doing this for long time, but we really only started in twenty nineteen, I guess, officially. And it really it it came about in terms of the the business and what it what it is attempting to do and it is achieving is it's a combination, I think, of my my work experience. So I started out in the advertising agency side. kind of grew up professionally in that area in Philadelphia and then New York.

Ryan:1:05
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:1:13
Then got into the strategic consulting side of things, which really opened opened things up in ways I'd never really like actually thought of, but in really positive ways. So not that we're working further upstream with executive leadership teams, we were doing that, but it was on the agency side, there was always a specific, I'll say like creative unit, like hey, there's a new app or a new website. So that was that was gonna be the solution. Going in, you knew it was gonna be something like creative. with with with the strategic consultancy, now we're working with

Ryan:1:24
Yeah.

Ryan:1:34
Hmm.

Ryan:1:40
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:1:45
with the leadership team on on issues and concerns and challenges that that impact the entire organization. So not that the the solutions weren't creative, but they weren't that that sort of more tangible sort of create creative idea. And that at at that time also the the larger

Ryan:2:01
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:2:07
consultancies were starting to get into the agency space and vice versa, the agencies were trying to get into consulting space. And I thought, well, gee, why don't we they come with a lot of baggage. and and at that time they weren't working out as well. I think they've they've improved their their their approach a lot better. But at that time I thought, why don't we just start from the ground up? Let's start from scratch and we'll bring in Former executive level marketers, agency strategists and create creatives, technologists in in IT and AI, entrepreneurs, and really kind of bring them together as as as one right from the get-go, right from the jump, that started to work pretty pretty well in terms of the initial conversations once once we had a a a person or a company qualified. That that initial conversation with those different perspectives and POVs in the room at the same time.

Trying to focus on on just initial conversations and potential solutions, it it resonated not only with with us on the call, but also the person we were having the call with. And that's how we knew we were kind of onto something. So that was kind of the catalyst for next. So what we what we're really doing in a nutshell is bringing brand and business together and making sure that that organizations who perceive a need for that, and and more and more of them are and or should be just because of the the pressures that

Ryan:3:09
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:3:13
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:3:27
And changes that AI is bringing about, but make sure that business and brand are acting as one and not going off on their own two divergent areas. And even if even if the brand is like three per three degrees off over time, that's you know, you know, that's gonna be a a big difference. Yeah.

Ryan:3:33
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:3:43
Vastly different location, isn't it? Can you can you give the audience some context behind sort of the the idea that made you realize this was a gap? Like back back before when you were working with those big agencies, what did you what did you learn and and and I guess what made it so so obvious to you that this was the direction you you really saw yourself running with?

Doug Longenecker:4:07
Yeah, well that's a that's a great question. So, you know, when I was working in New York, global global agencies on gold peop global pieces of business, it was all about brand. Brand, brand, brand. And that's good. It's not like that's a bad thing to be concerned about, but it was dimensionally at a certain point in my career, it it wasn't a and and how the business was changing as as well. It it didn't resonate that much with me anymore. And a lot of it just felt hollow.

Ryan:4:17
Hmm.

Ryan:4:36
Why was that? How do you mean hollow?

Doug Longenecker:4:37
because a lot of times we you know you'd be creating a brand, but it was because because brand was it on the on the marketer side or the company side, it was sometimes, you know, pushed off a little bit. So it's important, but you know, the business is driving everything. So you might be with with a it might be a a sales

Ryan:4:51
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:5:03
sales company that relies on s on sales and sales teams and and more transactional. And the brand is is just kind of they're sitting there being that nice thing that's supposed to be the the the mirror or the the extension of the business, but it wasn't really connected enough to to the business. And and and sometimes, you know, brand teams at the company have different incentives in terms of you know how how their bonus structure is. So they might be tracking metrics and KPIs that get them what they w they need. And so you might have this

Ryan:5:16
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:5:33
like robust brand, but it's still disconnected from from the the business.

Ryan:5:38
Yeah, what would be an example of the major disconnect you've seen happen from from the brand piece to actually how they service clients, customers? What's the main thing that kind of pops up?

Doug Longenecker:5:50
Yeah, so a couple things with that so hopefully I can I can track this all the way through. The the when the brand is I'll say embedded with the the business

Ryan:5:55
Yeah yeah.

Doug Longenecker:6:02
That brand is almost used as a lever or a fulcrum across everything the business is doing. So it's not just brand and marketing communications external. It's in it's internal. So I mean it'll start internally so that your the the company employees down to the rank and file understand, you know, why you know the little cog that they might be in this big wheel but the the larger idea of what they're achieving together. That's where it it kind of starts for for me. But then you start to extrapolate that out. So now you've got customer service slash customer experience. And how is that tracking to the brand versus the the business? Is it is it just transactional and the brand is talking about, hey, we're a relationship sort of type business and we know that's important and that's what they're talking about. So there's a disconnect there.

Ryan:6:33
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:6:58
Or if the if the employee experience isn't right, that's going to translate into a customer experience that doesn't work out right. So you might, but you might have an amazing customer experience, but it wasn't part of the program. It's the anomaly rather than than the norm. And then the other part of it might be like, what is the business going through? So if you look more recently to examples of maybe Jaguar and or Cracker Barrel, you know, they they as a business, they were getting

Ryan:7:08
Hmm.

Ryan:7:13
Yeah. Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:7:28
To a stage where they have their their solid custom b customer base is not going to be enough as you as you project out in time, is not gonna be enough to keep the business going. So how do you bring in new customer, new segments, new demographics while retaining the old ones? And both situations you had kind of brand leading the way in terms of the external visibility and understanding of where the brand was and and then where the business was going. And it was a disconnect for the core the core customers that they that they had. And it was still too new to to potentially new customers that it it just didn't track.

Ryan:7:54
Mm.

Ryan:8:04
Yeah.

Ryan:8:11
And what is the consequence of something like that on that trajectory? I guess how how extreme can that get?

Doug Longenecker:8:17
Well, like it's it's a huge in these both examples it's it's a huge backlash from current customers who are just you know if have been pushed too far maybe too too fast, right? So like Cracker Barrel was was noticing a lot of different things within their business that they needed to change. So they were changing the the makeup of of the restaurant, which it has its own distinct personality when when you're there and making changes to that, making changes to the menu. So these are all like little types of things that start to add up. But then when you change the

Ryan:8:30
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:8:55
logo in a dramatic way and I'll say dramatic for the core customers it's dramatic way and start breaking up some some very familiar pieces that they won't attach to that's like the you know the the the last straw so to speak and and the pushback was really hard so that they reverted back to the old logo.

Ryan:9:07
Mm.

Ryan:9:11
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it it can be it sounds more commonly that it's gonna be that sort of misalignment by a thousand different pieces that are slowly bringing that company off the course of what you know i is really in their best interest and and at you know in alignment with their customers, clients.

Doug Longenecker:9:35
Yeah, and and a good point. And a lot of that comes down to communication. So you've got the business tracking one way and maybe they haven't looped in brand and marketing teams enough to understand but like that they've been asked to do certain things and that's great. And th probably those executions that were happened, it's like the it's not that they were wrong, necessarily. It's just that disconnect when you when you track it back, there's a breakdown in communication in term and or maybe they were communicated with but

Ryan:9:40
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:10:05
But there should have been some pushback to the business side to say, wait, these are these are gonna actually be bigger dramatic changes than what what you might be anticipating, and how does that impact your business plan for the next three or five years as as we roll all of this out?

Ryan:10:22
Hmm.

It's interesting, isn't it? Because in in in a world how advanced we are right now with AI, with you know, all these systems, these language models, there's still so much vulnerability in terms of the way we communicate with each other, the promises we make, the expectations like internally as a business that are so often overlooked. And everyone just kind of wants the next flashy tool or the next you know system that's gonna improve, but nobody's looking inwards to how you know rip we're really operating together as humans. When was the first

Doug Longenecker:10:43
Yeah.

Ryan:10:53
Time you you kind of started to discover this. That was in your agency background days, I'm gonna assume, but but please let me elaborate.

Doug Longenecker:11:00
yeah, I mean I ha I had an assignment for the the the holding company at at one point on the the the the the global piece of business that I was on. So it's serviced by multiple different offices aro around the world. And my my assignment was to to visit all the different agencies and and their main clients within that that same account and just get a get start to get a feel, get a vibe for how things are kind of out there. Because I think no no one was really talking about communication. Sometimes it's just reporting back is like everything's great, everything's fine. And when I got out into the field, I was I I was not as welcome as I thought it was gonna be, number one. So that was a little awkward. But number two is

Ryan:11:34
Yeah.

Ryan:11:49
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:11:52
Th they the way it was rolled out to everybody so th the The agency it started out having a a a big chunk of North American business and we did really well with launch launching the brand in North America. And then it was take that campaign and let's let's have globally the same campaign. Well there's there's not a communication was was very terse very stark in terms of step one, fire fire your your agency. This is coming from the from the marketer, fire your agency. Step two work with this new agency. And then you know, six months later, I'm out there seeing how things are going. And and they weren't going well at all.

Ryan:12:31
Wow. Groundbreaking. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And I can understand why that might have been a little bit awkward because it sounds like you were kind of the one to to shed light where they didn't want light, so to speak. Yeah. no. How did you like what was some of the backlash you actually faced and and how did you navigate that?

Doug Longenecker:12:48
yeah, I'm the I I became the real like focal point for everything that was wrong with this whole situation.

Doug Longenecker:13:01
yeah. Well, the the best thing I realized I could s I could do, like initially I was trying to push back with all all the the the logical rationale, the emotional part of of why this why this is all happening and and very quickly I I figured out that

Ryan:13:14
Right.

Doug Longenecker:13:20
That's not the best way to do it. So I'll just sit back and this is just gonna be a listening tour of everything that's this happening. And that made it a little bit more palpable for everybody. 'cause I wasn't coming out there trying to tell them how to run their business. I but I was listening to see how we can make it better.

Ryan:13:26
Hmm.

Ryan:13:36
Right.

Ryan:13:40
Mmm. How has that shaped the approach of, you know, I I wanna shift gears just to kind of your company right now to understand how this has all kind of come together. In terms of how you serve your your best clients right now, what does that approach look like?

Doug Longenecker:13:59
that's a great question. So I would I would back that up a little bit. it's our our b our best engagements are ones where the our our clients have have kind of recognized that they have they have a problem. They might not know what it is. they they're experiencing certain symptoms that that's causing pain, but they're they're saying we need we need help with this, but they're open to understand

Ryan:14:21
Hm.

Doug Longenecker:14:27
that it it might have a little bit more far reaching impact in terms of trying to s trying to solve it. We might have to go back up the the the tree a little bit further to get to the source of where this real pain is coming from. But if they're just looking for a band-aid to go on top of it, I mean w we we you know, that wouldn't be our recommendation, but if if they think it would help and and we we think it would help s to some degree, but it's not gonna solve it. You know what mean? Yeah.

Ryan:14:36
Yeah.

Hmm. And initially yeah.

Ryan:14:52
No, you're treating the symptoms, not resolving the core root of the issue. So talk to us about who typically best fits your the businesses you can really help. Is there a specific size of business? Like where are they in their growth path and why does that make them the best fit for for this?

Doug Longenecker:15:13
Yeah, that's another great question. I th for us it's in terms of size of company, it's mid market to large small businesses because they they're the ones who are are are feeling the same types of pain, especially around AI and just the changes all the changes that is that is bringing forth and and presenting to to companies to try and deal with, but they don't have the the the resources in terms of investment capabilities or even talent in in house.

Ryan:15:19
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:15:43
House to deal with all those different changes that are going on. That enterprise level has teams of people and a lot larger budgets to invest in in certain areas to help get something fixed. But from our perspective, it gives us a chance to really come in and and like we're really where we shine is to be able to work with executive level teams and help them sort through not only their their kind

Ryan:15:57
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:16:13
and more narrow challenges, but also help them realize with others the impacts that the changes that we might be re recommending that they make. There's also gonna that's gonna that's gonna it's like a just ripples of a pool just go keep going out and out. So you've got to make sure that that's all covered with. And that kind of just comes back to communication in in the end as well.

Ryan:16:24
Yeah.

Ryan:16:31
Hmm.

Ryan:16:35
Yeah. Because I I suppose it's a fine line, right? You're you're essentially poking holes in all the areas and and the problems that they have and at the same time you're diagnosing like why these problems exist, doing your best to get to the root of it. But I can imagine there would be a a certain profile or a certain way that could go wrong if you know that they haven't come through the proper channels or like how have you best found your you're able to maybe qualify prospects or qualify that people are really open to receiving this advice, getting into the weeds of it so you can actually do your best work?

Doug Longenecker:17:14
Yeah, that that is gonna show up on pretty much every initial consultation. You you can you can tell pretty quickly

Ryan:17:20
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:17:23
Because there's just even within that initial discussion, you can tell pretty pretty early whether someone is willing to accept that maybe they're not doing everything right and that's and that's not or or maybe they're just not do it's right, but it's not enough. Or it's right but what they're doing is right, but you could do something in addition to that. So it's it's not always like you're you're telling them it's you're doing it wrong.

Ryan:17:38
Yeah.

Ryan:17:42
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:17:46
Right. Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:17:48
More more times than not, they're they're they're they're doing a lot of things and they're doing a lot of things right. It's the then sometimes it's even just kind of helping them make the connections that might be missed within all the things that they're doing right. So from a true consultant standpoint, I would say it's it depends. I mean it it will it's it's always gonna depend on the the not only the type of industry or or company that it is, but even the the culture within a specific

Ryan:17:53
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:18:06
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:18:16
You know, th every every company within the same industry doesn't have the same culture and how they approach things.

Ryan:18:20
Yeah, definitely. But I hope it's a it's a generalization to kind of expect that people at that level of success are going to be open to maybe being a bit vulnerable for their own good and you know, realizing they have a problem and being fully open about fixing it. in terms of that process from going from, you know, realizing there's the problem, sort of diagnosing the extent of it, running the consultation, How does your guys' pricing model work from there? Is it based on what specifically needs to be fixed? Do you work with clients for a certain length of time? How does that look?

Doug Longenecker:19:00
there's a there's a good question. So the in terms of like the length of time, that's gonna that will vary a a lot of times depending on the the the scope of of what we're we're trying to achieve, 'cause sometimes it's a very narrow, more surgical sort of, hey, this is this is what needs to be fixed and we can we can jump in and and jump out. Other times it's a little bit broader or even if it's narrow, it's not just a you know

Ryan:19:09
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:19:25
set it and forget it. We wanna be able to come back and and check in. Like so if it's a like like for example, if it's a sales and marketing alignment situation, a lot of times there's there's training involved with with sales.

Ryan:19:29
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:19:39
And that's not just a once and done. That needs to be sort of a repeated sort of sort of effort. and then in in pricing, it's it's very interesting. We've been trying to move more towards outcome based rather than just hourly. But so, you know, it's gonna take X amount of hours to do achieve everything that we've we've mapped out here. And you know, everything I've read, it's like that's where the market is moving. But I don't there's still a hesitancy, believe it or not, for some

Ryan:19:42
Hm.

Yeah.

Ryan:19:53
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:20:09
I think most clients were we tried to do that where that's still not a they're not that comfortable with it. And there's good 'cause there's lots of variables and and then it gets a little bit more intimate because if it might be determined on certain metrics. And now they gotta they've gotta be a little bit more forthcoming with information and maybe they don't wanna do that.

Ryan:20:15
Hmm. Yeah.

Ryan:20:24
Hmm.

Ryan:20:30
Which objectively should be, you know, the good truthful you know, partnering approach. You should be forthcoming with that. It should be understanding what's going on on both sides. And, you know, I think that sort of meritocracy is is an excellent way to to structure things. You know, we will do this for you and this is the value of it. Let let's agree on this being the price. Rather than, you know, w we're just gonna work by the hours for a deliverable that God knows the value of, does it really match up? What if any, and ballpark is fine. That like common standard engagement, where does it typically land?

Doug Longenecker:21:08
I'm not sure I know exactly what you what you mean.

Ryan:21:11
Like in terms of when let's use the example, I I can imagine sale that disconnect between sales and marketing is is something more common than not. Yeah. For for a business who really needs that dialed in, typically for the outcome and what's required most commonly that you've experienced, where does that ballpark actually land in terms of what you charge to to actually deliver and

Doug Longenecker:21:20
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:21:38
And give them the outcome they're looking for. Like what's the value of that? I'm trying to understand.

Doug Longenecker:21:44
well it it it that that varies. I mean I'll come back to it. It depends. for example, sometimes it's a broad based hey, we just need we need to get everyone on the same page and and maybe it's it's helping marketing and and sales understand the roles and responsibilities of of each. So it's not sales just complaining about hey, these leads are getting are are are crap and and that might not may or may not be the case. But it

Ryan:21:48
Yeah.

Ryan:21:55
Mm.

Ryan:22:07
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:22:11
But it might be something also like they have a new product launch coming coming out. So now there's in addition to to the getting the sales and marketing on the same page, we're we're backing it up to say, okay, well, here's a go-to market strategy. And part of part of that is more than likely gonna involve some value chain work. So looking at who they who they expect or think the target market is going to be at a at a at a I guess account-based level and and client level, but then also

Ryan:22:31
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:22:41
down to the roles of people who are actually buying. And a lot of times it's it's remarkable. I I I I don't I I not get surprised, but I thought it's always interesting how a lot of times we find a different and newer

Ryan:22:45
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:22:59
I shouldn't shouldn't say newer, but new new and not to replace a a a target segment, but in addition to the normal channels they usually go, but find a a new one that that might need to be approached differently because it's just it's out it's out of the norm of where that company usually goes or salespeople just have constantly overlooked some sort of specifier or or buyer for whatever reason.

Ryan:23:13
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:23:25
But now with this new product, it makes sense to to to attract to approach them and they have no idea how to do that in a in a in effective way. So now there's training involved in as another level of that. So that can that can go on a little a little bit longer. And usually the those training things, they should go on beyond what they do. But you know, if you can get one or two check-ins after after offici training, that's great. But you know, we're not you don't always see the

Ryan:23:25
Yeah.

Ryan:23:33
Hmm.

Ryan:23:39
It's Yeah.

Ryan:23:46
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:23:55
The continued progression. And then as as they bring in new new salespeople, all that kind of training gets lost. Yep.

Ryan:24:01
goes out the window, I'm sure. Yeah. I've been in so many organizations where there has been such a disconnect between what is on the front end of the marketing, how the sales team operates. They're kind of run as their own beast and the two just it's so obvious that there's a divergence that can just be, you know, highly destructive. And I I can imagine this has also shaped the way you you run your company and and your process massively because all of these things can be applied just as well ex Externally as they can be internally.

Doug Longenecker:24:48
yeah, and I I'll I'll start with the whole communication side of things. as we've grown, we we've we I'm I'm based in in New Jersey, just outside of New York. But as and the the core nucleus when we first started was kind of New York, New Jersey based. And as we've grown, we've we've gone a little bit broader than that and our our teams and even our our clients are are outside of the this area. So communication and then on top of it like because of the pandemic, then it's going remote.

Ryan:24:52
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:25:18
and and now a hybrid. It's communication is always a challenge. And th the the big thing I found is

Ryan:25:19
Yeah.

Ryan:25:24
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:25:27
I again it's it's it's different for different employees. And you some some would some see it as being too micromanaging and others are okay with it. And I I don't think I'm a micromanager, but some some people feel that way. But you just have to have check-ins. So, you know, we've got the weekly ones, but you know, just kind of random hey how things are going, sort of thing. and I I know that's not that's that not that much of a system, but that's that's

Ryan:25:42
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:25:49
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:25:55
We're dealing with with highly trained, professional, skill sets people and they and they're highly motivated. So they don't really they shouldn't need a lot of of of check-ins. They they that should be that's on them to to to keep things going. But it's a two way street in terms of communications. You know, it it's it's open and not just w back and forth with me, but other people on the team.

Ryan:26:03
Hmm.

Ryan:26:09
Yeah.

Ryan:26:15
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:26:21
to make sure that they're they have the right check-ins scheduled and even if if it's not if something comes up during a routine you just don't you just don't let it go until your scheduled check-in. You you you raise a red flag and there's nothing wrong with saying, hey, this this came out of left field, I'm not sure how to handle it. Or hey, this is this is getting to be much larger than we anticipated. Let's let's regroup and figure out how to how to handle this sort of thing.

Ryan:26:42
Hmm.

Ryan:26:46
Yeah, no, definitely. And I think it's going back to what you said about having those those systems set up that are relative to the skill set of the individuals, not going too far into micromanagement. That that's so key. I I've had a background in offshore recruitment and one of the biggest things that people get wrong is trying to hire senior talent.

But then tracking their movements with a mouse and having time doctor up and all of this craziness, which is just repulsive for the wrong people. With juniors, it it can definitely work. But what has been your experience in in terms of the talent that best fits with that kind of management? Is there a middle ground you look for? Like what were some of the best qualities out of your team that you see that you attribute to your success?

Doug Longenecker:27:12
Yeah. Yeah, that's

Doug Longenecker:27:38
Yeah, that's a great question. I'll I'll kind of start with myself. my first job in an ad agency, my boss told me the role and it was in account management. So he said, You're you're I I forget the question I asked that prompted it, but he said, Your role is to become the second best person at every department in this company. And and that stuck with me. So I look for pe

Ryan:27:42
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:28:06
not not necessarily true generalists, but but people who have a a high level of of talent in certain areas.

Ryan:28:09
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:28:16
So it it could be in AI and data, it could be in PR, executive thought leadership, customer experience, but they've they've they're not they don't operate in that solely in that lane. They know what implications, if they're making changes or or recommending things, they know that that goes out beyond the lane that they're in, and they understand how those levers all work independently as as well as together.

Ryan:28:44
Yeah. It's awareness.

Right, having that acumen to kind of understand that the whole machine as well as specializing in the cog that they're, you know, optimizing and and moving themsel themselves. I think that's brilliant. Doug, one of the things we love to talk about on this show is client acquisition. And I'm always super curious to understand, you know, what's working in this space right now, especially with an offer a as unique as yours. What what have you guys found the most success with in in today's day and age?

Doug Longenecker:28:46
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:29:14
Yeah, it's it's gonna sound old school. So we we've tried we've tried cold email programs. we're s we're doing we're doing sales navigator on on LinkedIn.

Ryan:29:23
Okay.

Ryan:29:27
LinkedIn.

Doug Longenecker:29:31
Both of the so there's there's benefits to both of those programs, but not a lot in the conversion as as of yet. And so when I said old school, the referrals is is still number one, but executive thought leadership is is one that I it's something we do. So I I I guess

Ryan:29:39
Hmm.

Ryan:29:44
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:29:53
that we offer and I was like, well we should probably look to doing that. So I was doing a lot of articles on my own on LinkedIn and with a podcast. But I said, let's turn this on on me just to get a just to get a test and and see how how how quickly we can get stuff moving.

Ryan:29:59
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:30:10
And I so I was open and I I wrote a lot of articles and we focused on byline articles and podcast episodes as a guest. And that combination has really worked the strongest to the point of I got a call earlier this in the late spring from a head of marketing and they said hey our our CRO read your article and I can't remember what what journal or what business magazine and they s they wanted me to

Ryan:30:18
Hmm.

Doug Longenecker:30:40
to reach out to you for this this project that they had going on. So yeah, I was like, wow. And that was within that happened within less than six months of us starting that program.

Ryan:30:44
How good did that feel?

Ryan:30:52
Hm. It's not an overnight thing, is it? It it

Doug Longenecker:30:56
And I don't mean to like I it feels like I'm making that up, but that's what actually happened.

Ryan:31:00
No, but six months is still people hear six months and they think, six months of doing all of that with no results. How could I ever?

You know, it it seem it's such a delayed sense of gratification, but like what what was the temperament of of that individual? Because, you know, fr from our experience from from what I've seen work in in this business, it's it's about building exactly as you said, that executive thought leadership, that sense of authority, that sense of trust. You get people deferring to you. How much of a difference was was that versus I don't know, maybe somebody who came in from cold email?

Doug Longenecker:31:35
Yeah, so it's just what you describe. It's it's someone who's who's Kinda like not only that they're they're pre qualified, but they're kind of pre-sold because it wasn't just that one article. So then that that was intriguing. That that got them interested. But I know they've gone to the website because they referenced things from from our initial call. I don't know if they they went to our our podcast to see anything, but they they we didn't we never used a capabilities deck with them at all. It was just an initial conversation, shared a lot of information back and forth, and had a good

Ryan:31:43
Yeah.

Ryan:31:53
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:32:09
vibe on on that it went to the to the to a further level beyond that and then asking us to to bid on a project. I I yeah.

Ryan:32:17
It sounds so easy, right? But there's so much that goes on behind it that I don't think people can can really understand unless they've they've been in the weeds themselves, that they've been dedicated to that system, but it pays off massively. 'Cause Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:32:30
Yeah, I mean so the the cold so your point earlier about it taking a long time to see something actually happen. The cold email, yeah, there there's more of a of a of a process and you feel like you're doing something more active, right? So you w our conversion rate wasn't great, but it was it was getting a lot of

Ryan:32:40
Mm.

Doug Longenecker:32:48
initial meetings that just really couldn't convert. And I don't know if that's on us or or not. And sales navigator is it's still and and part of it, we're in the services business. So just to come in cold and then expect to, you know, have a couple meetings and then it just switch over. Which but ironically, that's what happened with the thought leadership side of it.

Ryan:33:08
Yeah. It almost seems backwards, right? But it's it's one of those lessons you you only learn through experience. Cause you can you can hear about all those fancy tactics of cold email and you just need the right offer and and all of that. But until you're actually in the weeds of it taking and walking through and and really understanding what kind of prospects you get, it's really difficult to to understand what a massive difference it it actually is. Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:33:28
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:33:33
Yeah. Yeah. A and but it it also shows the power of of still like online media. 'Cause most I mean, most of it was digital media that that we were in, whether it was podcast or article.

Ryan:33:40
Right.

Ryan:33:45
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a critical piece in today's day and age. I mean, the first thing people do is is they go, if they're interested, they go on your website. If you've got a blog, if you've got a podcast, if you have all these other things going for you, it just installs so much confidence, right? And it it can put you leaps and bounds above. I I totally agree. Doug, I I want to end looking forward. In terms of your vision, your plan over the next 12 months, what's the

Doug Longenecker:33:58
Yeah.

Ryan:34:12
What's the number one thing, business outcome, numbers wise, that you'd be looking to achieve? Where where is most of your energy going?

Doug Longenecker:34:20
most of my energy going is going into biz dev right now. But and the way our business is set up, we've we've got you know four four levers of of services again that worked in independently and and together. But but trying to focus on one or two of those. And AI readiness is is really an area that we're focused on. We've got myself and our data AI, head of data AI, have like a like a six to eight eight seer part series, video video series that we've got two or two episodes long released and we got six episodes that are just need to get edited and and out there. But it's it's taking a I say a slightly different look at AI readiness, where just not having companies use AI for the sake of using AI, but it's really having them take a step back, take a beat, and say, what's really needed to make this effective, not just efficient? And so it's looking at things like data, data quality, data, how you're storing it, you know, it and with that comes governance around data, also your your workflow readiness, your employee adoption.

Ryan:35:14
Hmm.

Ryan:35:21
Yeah.

Ryan:35:35
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:35:37
rates, so and and setting up programs are gonna help them be more successful when AI really starts living up to the hype that it's all been promised.

Ryan:35:46
Right, 'cause there's a lot of hype. And I think it's one of those things that's a very shiny object right now. And it it get it garners so much attention that it's difficult to look outside of that and understand all the other pieces going on around it that actually have to be put in place appropriately for it for it to really work. Doug, I really do wish we had more time, but I had an absolute blast. if people want to hear more out about what you do, your services, where can they best find you?

Doug Longenecker:35:52
Yeah.

Doug Longenecker:36:01
Mm-hmm.

Doug Longenecker:36:15
Yeah, I you know, I I live on LinkedIn quite a bit. It's also what's next dot com. But they can also go to Brave Business Triumphs on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Ryan:36:19
Yeah.

Ryan:36:26
Brilliant. Awesome. Well, Doug, thank you very much for coming, audience. Thank you for watching. Until next time. Nice.

Doug Longenecker:36:33
Ryan, thanks for having me. It was a joy. See ya.