Cash Flow Runs Media Buying More Than Creative Does

Ryan:0:00
Cool. Welcome back to the [High Ticket AI Systems] podcast where we talk about all things client acquisition, scaling, marketing sales, AI, and everything else in between. Everyone, please welcome the one and only Carrie Hartman, founder and CEO of Trust Engage. Carrie, welcome to the show.

Cari Hartman:0:19
thanks for having me. This is great.

Ryan:0:21
More than welcome. Yeah. Really excited to have you on. And for the people who may not already know, haven't done their research, please give them some background on exactly who you are and and what your company, Trust Engage, does best.

Cari Hartman:0:34
yeah, so I'm Carrie Hartman. I've been doing affiliate marketing, performance marketing for the past like 19 years, I think it is now. I got in this space like working for a spy tool for email marketing, and decided that there was probably a lot more money to be made actually doing the marketing. So I've been in that space a long time and I started Trust Engage about three years ago. Finally had the courage to go on my own, go solo.

Really looked back. I my company, Trust Engage, we with a focus on email, we are actually like customer acquisition experts. we run ad campaigns, we broker them to traffic sources, and we have an internal media buying department. And we also manage abandoned cart data for e-commerce pages.

Ryan:1:31
What is it you don't do? What it of course. Yeah. and the typical typical client who you find works best with what you guys offer, how how would you best describe the fit you're typically looking to partner up with?

Cari Hartman:1:33
Exactly, yeah. I guess you could look at us as a as an agency, an acquisition agency. Yeah.

Cari Hartman:1:53
Yeah, I would say it's a brand that's looking to grow their customer acquisition efforts with affiliates and also to streamline their funnel and make it convert for users that like if you're spending money to buy paid media, you want to make sure that you're completely optimizing that and getting as much back end revenue as possible. So we help with that.

Ryan:2:05
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:2:19
Yeah, brilliant. So in regards to the scale of the company, just so the audience can can understand, you mentioned you started sorry, you said three years ago, right? Yep, three years ago. How are things currently looking now in terms of headcount count, size of the company? Like how has that scale been since then?

Cari Hartman:2:29
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cari Hartman:2:40
yeah, we have about we keep a pretty lean team. I I always call it a lifestyle business. but we have a pretty sizable ops team overseas, and a guy that manages that, a media buyer, internal media buyer that runs our other media buying partnerships, and then myself. So it's really a small team and you know, accounting and stuff. So

Ryan:3:03
Yeah. Well, in today's day and age, you know, it's it pays to be lean and there's so many things now that we can leverage AI workflows, efficiencies. We obviously have the whole offshore market that's opened up now that you know we we've gone into the virtual landscape. how if we go back to before you started trust engage and before you had the idea of it, walk us through. where you were, exactly what position you were in, and what was that light bulb moment where when you really decided that this did have potential? And then talk us through going in sort of all in from there.

Cari Hartman:3:45
Yeah. I was working with a f with a friend of mine and I kind of was with her the whole time that we were building it up. and and I realized at the end of the day it wasn't mine so been on kind of all sides of the business and really the business that we're in performance marketing is it rewards like high risk high reward that's kind of how it is and I'm a fairly risk averse person so I think I've always just wanted to work for others and learn and be behind the scenes and there was a certain point where I just realized that I wanted to own the business.

Ryan:4:24
It's such a key key leverage point, especially when you know you're a thought leader in this space and and you have that experience and it is the most is always the riskiest move, right? But it's it sounds like things really lined up and and it did make s as much sense as it can in in that position. Since then, how have you seen the The market evolved, like the the technology, AI coming into the space. How have things changed in your perspective since when you started to to the day and age we we're now in just a few years later?

Cari Hartman:5:01
I think that that AI has been a real game changer with making the actual ad creatives. so there's less differentiation between media buying teams because Media buying successfully and driving performance always hinges on the creatives. And now with like all of these video AI tools, it's much, much, much easier for anyone without any real skill to just put in a prompt and do it. So then I feel like the biggest lever, leverage that you can have is like with cash flow and the ability to scale with teams. So money becomes a it's kind of like the hidden component that nobody talks about that drives. the whole business is just cash flow and the ability to like be able to factor and float and float money.

Ryan:5:51
I think that's really key what you mentioned about obviously the you utilizing the AI tools and and now creatives are that much easier so that literally anybody who can string a sentence together can can begin producing content. But at the same time, there is so much AI slop as we refer to it, right, out there. What is what is the biggest factor of differentiation that you typically see from, you know, you you've got that one side of the spectrum utilizing AI, it's a crutch, it's the slot. versus something that's really put together to to perform.

Cari Hartman:6:25
Well, honestly, it's also to do with like the budgets that you're able to secure from the brands themselves. so if you have if you prove yourself and your traffic is quality, and you have some transparency and closeness with the advertisers that you're working with, they'll give you a higher payout and then you have an advantage in the the bidding, the auction.

Ryan:6:53
Can you give the audience an example of of typically how you've seen that play out?

Cari Hartman:7:02
I've seen it play out in the fact that like you'll s I get approached by media buying teams all the time, like people that are overseas or or may not have like a robust business development arm. and they're like, Can you introduce me to the buyer, the buyer, the buyer? But like the buyer, I mean, for example, in like insurance lead gen, it's a buyer's market. So they have all of these people coming to them, pitching them constantly, and it's like, how do you really stand out? And I mean, the way that I've been able to do that is like with the thought leadership angle. I've been on LinkedIn since it started, posting content. now I see a lot more people.

Ryan:7:15
Mm-hmm.

Cari Hartman:7:45
Sort of getting into that and I do see some AI slop again, but it's like it's kind of gaming the algorithm in a way. And if you can do that, then people at least recognize your name and and see you like somebody from a Fortune 500 that like a major insurance carrier, you know, they're they don't know who you are, they have half a million employees, so it's really standing out in the pack. makes a difference.

Ryan:8:11
Yeah. And it's easy to do so when you have the right perspective and and you understand what everybody else is doing. And instantly when I'm you know reading through my emails or looking on LinkedIn, you can just the key for me is that is the double long hyphen. Whenever I see that double long hyphen, I just know what when it's any anything text, it's like, okay, that's that's just been spat out of some LLM. And if you can work a around that and you can leverage AI to obviously operate at scale to be automated, but also to to to be different from what everyone else is doing. That that's when I can see a lot of potential in the marketplace and and and standing out becomes easier because you can you can see what everybody else is doing. How how has that influenced the way you've grown this business? Obviously you're you're an expert in client acquisition for for your clients. How how do you typically approach that process to to onboarding new business yourself?

Cari Hartman:9:09
So I start with a vertical. and this is kind of I don't use AI to do forward-facing messaging ever. I mean, I might use to to like if I want to edit it or just make sure everything's grammatically correct, but I use it for deep bizdev research. Like I use it to find companies that are buying leads and or acquiring customers in such and such vertical. I build a pipeline using that, and then I try to just be myself when I approach these companies and because I have this an established presence, that's the it typically works. That way I'm reaching out from a genuine point of view and not like just slapping them with like some bot message. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because I mean I get three in a day and I'm like, no, no, no. So

Ryan:9:56
pitch. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And it just goes straight to spam junk. And yeah, it's it it's you know, such authentic approach that is going to be the one that stands out now. And in regards to the the process that you've typically employed, tools, system software for you know assessing that vertical, can you give the audience some context around what has typically worked best for you in that sort of outreach and and biz dev phase?

Cari Hartman:10:30
yeah, I actually so there's quite a few tools that you can use that will append data once somebody actually accepts your LinkedIn request. they'll get you'll get their corporate email. Like I one that I use is called Data Nice, but I don't know if they're still around. there's some other like tools that are similar that basically will give you the data that you need. Also, I recommend like trade shows that are specific to a vertical. Like I do attend a lot of the performance marketing events that are specific, but I feel like those are family reunions and I'm just seeing the same thirty people that I already know very well and communicate with on the daily. So the the conferences that really stand out are going to like a Medicare agent conference or like You have to go where your where your customers are. So like because then they know you and then you stand out. Like if you if you just cold outreach on LinkedIn it doesn't work nearly as well.

Ryan:11:34
No. And there's such high return when you actually show up in person, when you're able to build that presence. And again, it's it's something that most people are not open to doing. And if you can if you can leverage yourself in in that position, but at the same time, know that you don't want to be attending the same trade show with the same thirty people the same every time.

Cari Hartman:11:55
Yeah. Like we went to an insurance agent conference called Medicare Con. I went to that and I saw maybe five of my competitors, but we call it like cooperation in our space because we can all technically work together but we compete. So I we all look around and see each other. You know, it's like I see I see

Ryan:12:06
Mm.

Ryan:12:11
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:12:15
Yeah. You know what's going on. Yeah.

Cari Hartman:12:17
Yeah, exactly. And then it's so funny because by the next year you'll see, you know, this twenty people and then and then all everyone finds out about it and then it's over. It's over.

Ryan:12:29
Yeah. And you gotta move on. You gotta find another edge, right? And it typically when you're when you're doing that research to find out, you know, where actually makes sense for you to show up. c can you walk us through obviously I know you're utilizing these tools and I know that there's gonna be some automations and efficiencies in there. What typically determines a An event that's worth showing up to. What's your criteria that needs to be ticked off for it to be genuinely worth showing up in person?

Cari Hartman:13:01
Hm, I think the I think I have a lot of little side conversations with with people in my network to see what the vibe is. And it it basically if I I'm friends or close with somebody that is in that space, I would immediately just go and ask them like who's going to this, like who's showing up. Or I just research it on LinkedIn and see what companies are sponsoring. And it really if you if you can triangulate the companies that are sponsoring and decide if they're a good fit for the customer target, like

Ryan:13:11
Yeah.

Ryan:13:19
Yeah.

Cari Hartman:13:33
that's kind of the determining factor. The number of people, the venue helps also. there's I've gone to some shows that were so deep in the insurance agent world that I I I was like, I don't know what I don't know what to say here. A little fish out of water, but at least hopefully win them over with my charm. So

Ryan:13:52
Yeah.

Ryan:13:57
Win them over with your charm. I mean, you you gotta use what you have, right? It's it's one of those things where in the age of AI technology, everybody can, you know, eventually the tools you're gonna be using now are gonna be saturated at a certain point, right? And everybody's gonna be using them, but that that's still yourself. You you still have the power of being individually who you are. And when you think about your competitors in the space, like I I going back to that example where you're you're at that same sort of event and you see, you know, I know what's going on here. how do you typically differentiate yourself against a competition in this marketplace? Is there a specific unique mechanism you lean on?

Cari Hartman:14:35
Mm.

I mean to be honest, it's usually just knowledge of the space. I tr I try to lead with that. and I know that th those five other people that are at that show have the same knowledge and we're sort of there's room for us, you know, like there's room for for the top people kind of. so I don't I don't really try to differentiate that much. In fact, like they're being helpful by educating the customer base as well. So it's kind of like Yeah.

Ryan:15:10
Can you explain that and elaborate? They're being helpful by helping the customer base as well. How do you mean by that?

Cari Hartman:15:16
Like like sometimes your audience like some I say you have a two hundred person insurance agency and they're getting pitched constantly, leads, call like inbound phone calls.

Ryan:15:26
Mm-hmm.

Cari Hartman:15:29
If you have, you know, these other thought leaders in the space explaining how the business works and the KPIs and what we can do for them, it kind of kind of helps you out like in the long term because when you go to talk to that person there already know sort of what the offering is.

Ryan:15:48
Yeah. It's more they have more awareness, right? And

Cari Hartman:15:51
Yeah. They're like, you're just like this person and you you can do this for me and I'm like, Yes, exactly. So a little lazy. Yeah. Work smarter.

Ryan:15:54
Yeah.

Nice. You you're not starting from zero. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And that goes yeah, too. It can go two ways, right? Because in today's marketplace, I mean a recent example is what changed with meta ads this last year, where you know the the algorithm updated and now everybody is getting the ads from your competitors if they don't click on and and they don't proceed to follow through with with your particular creative. And that you know that that's a double-edged sword because you know if you can position yourself in

Cari Hartman:16:21
yeah.

Ryan:16:27
the market so you have the content available you you have the the positioning so when somebody doesn't that they come to you and they're already at that level of awareness but it's how have you seen that across the the initiatives you you run? How have you seen that level of awareness develop and and what has been maybe some of the strategies or things you've implemented to to take advantage of that?

Cari Hartman:16:55
Yeah, with with media buying, it's I mean it's an ever changing like living organism. I would say like what it looks like from an ecosystem is there's all these groups. There's all these like private groups on on Telegram, for example, WhatsApp, other media buyers because it's such a difficult thing that even though we're all competing, we all talk about, did you see like Facebook banned a bunch of accounts today, like and stuff like that happens every day. It seems like there's something with a different ad platform and the changes they've made, email marketing has gotten more difficult from delivery perspective.

Ryan:17:37
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Cari Hartman:17:39
I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but basically like it's a constant game of updates and and trying to stay ahead of it. and there's there's various ways of doing that, but that's kind of like I guess if there's anything secret, not really, but the secret sauce of media buying.

Ryan:17:59
Please tell us, Kari. We need the secret sauce.

Cari Hartman:18:04
Yeah, credit lines, accounts, invoicing, reps at the platforms, you know, that's that's kind of the that's it. I mean and and those th all those things can be accomplished by going to trade shows as well. So

Ryan:18:06
Yeah.

Ryan:18:19
Right. And it's often the non-sexy stuff, right? It's the stuff that does require the reps, it does require the the exposure and it's just time at the end of the day. But it but it's interesting to to hear that, you know, although it is such a competitive marketplace, it brings you together with your competition because you you're all kind of in the same boat and it's

Cari Hartman:18:43
Yeah.

Ryan:18:44
You know, it's it's one of those things, as you said, you you've got to be forever keeping up with it because it's a forever and evolving beast that you you don't want to be left behind from. You've got to be always adapting and and looking forward. How how do you see this this marketplace evolving now that we're in the age of AI, now that things are, you know, compounding its exponential growth over the next, you know, five years? I'm sure we have no idea what it's gonna look like. But how do you see yourself positioning

Cari Hartman:18:50
Mm-hmm.

Ryan:19:13
appropriately for for this age of, you know, such innovation and and advancement.

Cari Hartman:19:19
I was having a conversation with my emailer, like he d he handles the data management part of our business this morning actually. and we were talking about leaning into that because media has gotten more expensive across the board. So, like, I think s somebody was saying that Meta has gone up like thirty percent in the last year or something, the cost.

Ryan:19:26
Yeah.

Cari Hartman:19:45
think that will continue the the media costs will continue to go up as everything's like sort of in a walled garden and then with email marketing the cost to inbox has gone up also. So like my my Mailer, he basically is having to send more to make the same amount of revenue and the costs, the sending costs have gone up versus the revenue. So then we're looking at, okay, like let's find people who are paying all this money for their audience and help them get more value out of that audience. So we're leaning into managing abandoned carts and legacy data and all of that.

That's I think that's the future.

Ryan:20:32
And it's interesting because it it takes away from the the pure tech behind it and it puts the leverage back on again, you know, being a thought leader in your space and and having that authority and really using what where you you can have the largest amount of leverage as as something that you can find a certain amount of control with. Cause there's gonna be more updates, there's gonna be more, you're you're exactly right, costs are gonna forever increase and it's you know trying to find those little pieces of security that you can, you know, invest into and then, you know, we're taking each step from there. So yeah.

Cari Hartman:21:08
Yeah. The other big like factor of of how things are right now is like just the economy and how things are with running paid ads in general is like what's hot right now, which what vertical is like working. And we see like the economy, we always know what's happening with the economy before the experts do because we're running ads and we know what people are responding to. So I see like home services is really doing well.

Ryan:21:29
Yeah, we feel it.

Yeah.

Cari Hartman:21:38
Getting more competitive, and it's still an industry that's not controlled by four companies. Like it's not an oligopoly yet. I'm sure that'll change, like as hedge funds invest more and more in roll up services companies, but there's still a lot of competition driving that, and people the mortgage industry, like refi, is absolutely not in a good place because interest rates are high, right? So, like people are staying in their homes, so they're fixing their home.

Ryan:21:45
Yeah.

Yeah, it's

Cari Hartman:22:08
So there's consumer demand that's high for windows, roofing, siding, HVAC, plumbing, all of that. Like that demand is high and there's competition. So that's a really healthy market. Whereas you see like the loan space, ReFi, anything like that is not doing well because interest rates are still high. So

Ryan:22:30
Yeah. And it comes in cycles, right? Because even though that's the case right now, you know, eventually the tables are going to turn and as you know, you're you're we're we're at the forefront of being able to spot, you know, what is doing well. And there's gonna be a lagging indicator, as you said, when when the hedge funds start investing into, you know, home services, that's that's slowly gonna shift around. So it it's always that game of, you know, hedging your bets and sort of riding the wave.

But Carrie, what what if anything, I mean, I know it's such an uncertain time, but in in your business trajectory, even in your personal life, I'm I'm always curious as to, you know, the the mind behind these machines that that are running in the background. Over the next 12 months, what are you most excited about? Do you have anything that you're specifically looking to achieve? What what what's your vision for the next year or so?

Cari Hartman:23:28
my vision is to really I've been looking at CTV a lot. it's kind of an emerging channel, even though it's old school because it's TV, it's new because it's programmatic. So I want to grow that division of the business. And I just want to continue to partner directly with advertisers who own their customer audience, own the data, and scale scale that business as well.

Ryan:23:38
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan:23:52
Yeah. And your energy personally and obviously the the team you have behind you, where will most of your energy go to be making that happen? What what's the game plan you kind of have in in your mind for how you're going to approach that?

Cari Hartman:24:06
for me it's primarily the the biz dev side of things. That's that's always what I lead with. I'm speaking at a conference in Rome, a new affiliate conference. yeah. So yeah, I think that's where they're having it now. Yeah, no, I'm ex I'm really excited. I honestly just wanna go to Rome in November. But yeah.

Ryan:24:18
Rome. Wow. In the Colosseum?

Gotta be. Come on. That'd be so cool.

Ryan:24:31
Yeah.

Yeah. November. I I remember I went to Rome in I believe it was February and it was just that nice medium, like beautiful temperature. But yeah, November is is it summer over there?

Cari Hartman:24:43
Yeah.

Cari Hartman:24:47
no, it's got it it's cooled off by then. The tourists are gone. It's it's lovely. that's where I Yeah, it's jacket weather. It's perfect. Yeah.

Ryan:24:51
Yeah. You can wear a jacket.

Yeah. Nice. Well, that's something to look forward to for sure. Carrie, I I do wish we had more time. Where can people find you if they want to explore more about what you do and and how you do it?

Cari Hartman:25:08
Hmm. on LinkedIn, of course, as where I do my business from and keep a presence going. I'm very active with Link Unite, which is a women's group. also Queens of Digital Marketing is a charitable organization that helps female trafficking victims get jobs, like careers in the industry. and then I also I'm on Instagram, but that's mostly gardening content. So that's like a hobby for me. not monetizing it, but it's it's fun. So.

Ryan:25:41
Yeah.

Ryan:25:45
Right. You gotta have that balance. Hey. And yeah, audience, you heard it here first. Carrie, thank you so much for coming. This has been super insightful. I've thoroughly enjoyed having you on. Audience, thank you so much for watching. Until next time.

Cari Hartman:25:59
Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan:26:01
Yo