Why Cold Callers Fail Before They Dial the First Number

Jordan Lally:0:00
Welcome back to the High Ticket AI Systems Podcast. Everyone, please welcome the one and only Mr. Patrick Williams Joyce. Patrick, how are you doing today, my friend?

PWJ:0:09
I'm doing great. How are you, Jordan?

Jordan Lally:0:11
Excellent man. We're happy to have you on. Now, the reason why I invited you out here is because what you're doing in the B2B space, in my opinion, is very different. And I know you might not agree with me, but not a lot of businesses are actually doing what you do. Yet it is a very traditional and old school style, yet still highly effective. So with that being said, my friend, could you give us and the people like a high-level overview? like what you guys do and and who you guys serve.

PWJ:0:44
Yeah, very simply stated, we do cold calling as a service for early stage B2B SaaS companies primarily. we've stepped outside of that lane a few times in some other industries. You know, cold calling still works pretty much everywhere. but mostly most of my sales career has been in early stage tech companies. so that's that's where we try to focus.

Jordan Lally:1:06
I love it. Can you give us an example of an early stage tech company? Are they high ticket B to B SAS? Are they low ticket like Riverside software subscriptions or

PWJ:1:16
The ones that work well with us are typically high ticket. they're selling, you know, software with like let's say minimum annual like 30k is their average deal size. because otherwise it's it doesn't tend to make a lot of sense to have an SDR. Like if you have a hundred dollar a month product, like you should probably do some type of product like growth motion and not pay a cold caller to go do individual sales. Like that, it just doesn't the math doesn't work out. but yeah.

Jordan Lally:1:26
Got it. Got it.

Jordan Lally:1:44
Right, right, right.

PWJ:1:46
Yeah, that's that's where we swim.

Jordan Lally:1:48
Awesome. And you okay, so that's who you help. Can you give us an an overview of the pricing structure? Do you place SDRs inside their business or do they outsource the call into you? You manage the SDRs. How does that work?

PWJ:2:05
Yeah, they outsource the calling to us. So it's pretty much turnkey. Like they sign a contract with us and then we go and build a list for and when I say build a list, I mean we have to get their ideal customer profile, what type of companies, what type of contacts inside those companies, where all the pain points, et cetera. You know, we figure all that out. And then I go and put together a highly targeted list of all the people that are their potential customers, and then we just go execute against it. So compared to hiring somebody, you know.

Well you gotta do the interviews, you've gotta find somebody you think is gonna be okay. if you're paying at the same rate that you would pay an agency, you're gonna get somebody entry level that doesn't really know what they're doing, so then you have to guide them or you have to pay a manager. you know, it gets a lot more expensive and time consuming to do it yourself. Whereas I've done it a million times for like over a hundred companies at this point. Like probably in hundreds of companies that have worked with that are early stage that are trying to get an outbound program off the ground and we move very quickly. so yeah, it's it's pretty much just sign the contract and let us let us get to work.

Jordan Lally:3:13
Gotcha. The agents or the SDRs that you place, I assume you have a a dialed in recruiting process where like you're a vetting.

PWJ:3:21
Yeah, I've built up my network of SDRs over the last ten years. It's I mean, I started as an SDR, and then, you know, went up through sales leadership and I've been building my network the whole time. So I have access to all the best talent in the industry. Everybody that is, you know, trying to pick up yeah, I I pay my guys per project. so they're just they're basically just picking up you know, additional work for themselves. the way that I have it set up my reps only have to dial. Like they don't have to do any of the other normal like admin work. Like I hand them the sheet and they log in and dial. So I can be really efficient with my workforce that way.

Jordan Lally:4:04
Yeah, if you're a sales rep, you should never be bogged down in admin. Like the most profitable thing you can be doing, well, depending on what stage you're at as a business owner, but the most profitable thing you can do as a sales rep is fucking pick up the phone and try to try to get some leads, right? Try to set some appointments, close some accounts, right? So kudos to you, too, I'm tipping your hat to you for not putting your freaking SDRs through admin work. Like they should not be doing that.

PWJ:4:33
my goodness. I I lived it for so many years where you get hired at a company and they're like, all right, like h here's your Salesforce account, like good luck, go figure it out. no company lists, no not and you have to go and start doing all the prospecting work yourself. Yeah, you have to figure out what who am I gonna sell this to and what people am I gonna sell them to or they might have leads in the CRM but they've been there for Three years and the person doesn't work there anymore, or they're not the right titles, or they did like a mass Zoom info import, and none of it makes any sense, right? And they're they're just digging through, you know, fighting through it with their livelihood on the line. You've quota to hit by the end of the month, and you are not set up for success. So I really am trying to shortcut all that and just really give the rep a super tight list with cell phone numbers already on it. They're all the right people.

Jordan Lally:4:59
Right.

PWJ:5:26
You know, there's gonna be some wrong numbers in there. There's no database that's like a hundred percent accurate. But I mean, you know, you hit a wrong number. All right, sorry, just go to the next one. you know, it's it I'm trying to minimize the amount of down t downtime they have.

Jordan Lally:5:39
How to talk to you again. Yeah, and people that complain about a shitty list, I don't want to say go fuck yourself, but like, dude, like not everything is gonna be accurate 100% of the time. Like I run in an outbound email agency, right? We verify the list twice. One through Reun and the second time through Million Verifier. And even after that, through our sending software, we use instantly, we're thinking about moving under smartly, but that's besides the point. Even after we double verify the lead, bro.

Sometimes we get notifications saying, this email bounced or this email didn't go through or this this email is invalid. It's like shit happens. Like quit quit bitching about the list, you know, just move on.

PWJ:6:20
Yeah, and even back when I was a rep too, like there the reason why I was at the top of the leaderboard is because I was looking at the situation that I just described where you get the leads in Salesforce, they're no good. And I went and I struggled and built my own list and I stayed late and I like put the work in there to get the right the list of the right people in front of me, which is where I got the experience to be able to do it now for my clients and for my reps. but the reps that were struggling were just looking at whatever was in front of them in Salesforce and going, I guess I'm not getting anything and then they wouldn't get any leads that month and then you know, they didn't hit their quota and then they were on a pip, you know. It's either it's either you do it, you do it and find success, or you don't and you struggle.

Jordan Lally:7:07
You're sucked. Yeah. Talk to me about that mindset shift though for a second. What led you to, you know, work your way up the ladder? Obviously you have grit, you have hustle. And then one day you said, you know what? I I I'm gonna do this. I'm I'm gonna, you know, take leaf off leap off the bridge and become an entrepreneur. I guess what happened? How was that mindset shift for you?

PWJ:7:29
To I had eight jobs in ten years. is really what it came down to.

Jordan Lally:7:34
I fucking feel that, bro. I fucking feel that. I am unemployable, dude. I cannot work for anybody else. I don't know why. I'm I'm not not a hard worker. It's just that I would rather put all my eggs in one basket and that basket is fucking meat. You know what I mean?

PWJ:7:52
Well, real realistically, what what happened is I took a bunch of chances on a bunch of early stage startups because the allure of getting in at something on the ground level and having to blow up and be there for it was fantastic. Was was like w that's what I was trying to do. And not all of them did. Some of them did well, some of them didn't. sometimes the timing wasn't right. Sometimes I was too expensive for they needed to be at the time. Like you go through all these trials and tribulations, but then All that added up to me getting all of this life experience of what it's like to be in an early stage startup. So now when I talk to my clients, I know exactly what they're going through. I know exactly why they shouldn't hire somebody like me as as a W-2, right? You should hire me as an agency where you can do it for three months and try it out and see what's gonna work and go try to get some feedback from the market and you know, build out what your messaging should look like and whatnot. Like all the work that wasn't done when I got hired at those places when I was younger. Right? Like I'm helping people do that in a way cost more cost effective way.

Jordan Lally:8:57
You're almost like a like a consultant at the same time. Like

PWJ:9:00
Exactly right. It's exactly right. It so that's that's how I pitch it is that not only are you getting a caller for the agency fee, you're also getting consulting work wrapped into one price that's less than what you would pay an entry level SDR who doesn't know what they're doing.

Jordan Lally:9:17
Exactly, exactly. Th we we s kinda talk about that, like that's one of our our our marketing messages as well. That S Drs are expensive, they they don't work as hard as us. Like we use a lot of like AI to automate the the the process, but that's besides the point. Talk to us for a sec yeah, I have to ask this question. To me, Patrick, it sounds that the S Drs on your on your squadron on the outbound team, they're US based, like remote based, but

PWJ:9:46
Yeah. Yep. I've got one guy in Canada, but yeah, North America.

Jordan Lally:9:50
That's amazing, dude. Okay. Cause like you hear about, you know, SDR teams or cold callers and a lot of them are like overseas. And no offense to anyone that's their business model. But us Americans are a little like prejudiced. And when I say that, I mean if we hear someone overseas like you know, a Latin accent or an Indian accent for whatever the fuck reason, bro, we just like, nah, no thanks. And like I understand, like I I get it, I understand.

PWJ:10:03
Yeah.

Jordan Lally:10:21
And like if you know that about the market, then like why are you attempting to still use like overseas call centers? Like I just don't think it's as effective, right? anyways. Thoughts on that?

PWJ:10:33
Yeah. agree. I think that the le I mean, let's be honest, it's cheap labor. That's why people do it. I think that there is probably a time and a place for it. I think if you want if you're trying to sell to a particular audience here in the in the US, especially especially if it's blue collar. Like I have a few clients in like oil and gas and one guy that's selling to like diesel mechanics. There's no way you're gonna have somebody with an accent calling some diesel mechanic in North Carolina. Like it's just it's not gonna work.

Jordan Lally:11:11
I could imagine how that conversation's going. Yeah.

PWJ:11:13
It's just not gonna work. the and the the other thing too is it's not even just that the accent, it's also not that somebody offshore can't have good business acumen, but the the people that I hire are very experienced in B2B SaaS in particular. They've held conversations with CFOs, VP of finance, VP of sales, they've held conversations with CROs before, they've worked at SaaS companies themselves, they understand what the priorities are.

Like those are the people that I'm looking for to bring onto my team. so that when you want to go, because you want to start high, right? Like obviously you call the CRO, they might not be the end user, but they're the person who cares about the bottom line the most. You have to be able to hold a conversation with them. and if you're just if you're coming at it from a down angle, regardless of the accent or not, if you're coming at it from a down angle looking up at the person and trying to get them to throw you a bone, it's you you are immediately deprioritized.

Whereas if you have a little bit of executive presence and you can hold a conversation with that person and you project confidence on the phone, again, regardless of the accent, somebody with an accent could be projecting confidence and have the acumen to be able to do that. I think that's really the most important.

Jordan Lally:12:27
You're s now that is a serious, serious talking point right there. A lot of people, and I've learned this when I first first got into sales. Like I was broke, hungry, desperate. And that desperateness comes through the phone so fucking much. Like you said, if you're down here speaking up to your prospects, they're gonna look down upon you. And because they're looking down, it's like, why would I buy something from you when I don't view you as an equal to me? They don't have to well Subjective. I I want your feedback on this. I don't think they have to view you as better than you. Like I I I me as a prospect, I don't think I have to view this person higher than me, but at least equal. If it's not at least equal, you're not getting the deal from from an authority and confidence standpoint. Now, do you think it has to be higher or do you think it could be equal? Obviously the higher the better, but

PWJ:13:23
I think tone communicates a lot more than we give it credit for. I think it's it's an immediate there's something that happens. If you ever read Orrin Claf or listen to any of Orin Claf's work, he talks about this at all where when you meet somebody new or you hear somebody's voice for the first time, you're sizing them up immediately, not even based on the words that they say, but just the way that they are projecting themselves. and I think whether it's, you know, whether the person thinks that they're above you or not, I I think that the the tone, the confidence, and the competence that you can project, meaning like this person knows what they're talking about. I it it's worthwhile for me to try to listen to whatever they have to say. There's like a tripwire that goes off in your brain in the first three seconds when they hear you speak. and I'm just trying to get past that tripwire.

Jordan Lally:14:17
Yeah.

PWJ:14:20
Now, the person might be an egomaniac and they think that they're above everybody, but can I still sell some sell them something? Yeah. I mean, if they need whatever I I have, like I can probably do that. So yeah, I just I think that the the tone, the confidence, and the ability that you're able to like speak their language and hold a conversation is is the most important part. I I know I didn't really answer your question, but that's those are my thoughts on it.

Jordan Lally:14:47
I think you did. I think you did. And I think you gave a better answer of yes or no. So thank you for that. Talk to talk to us about getting through that first three seconds. Like how do you get to the hang up phase? Like what's your approach, your philosophy, your mindset on that? What do you teach to your guys?

PWJ:14:52
Yeah.

PWJ:15:01
I don't really try that hard. If the person's gonna hang up, they're gonna be a hanger-upper.

PWJ:15:09
And I just go to the next one. I it's it's not that big of a deal. Like the people that are gonna talk to you, they're gonna talk to you, they're gonna they're gonna give you the time of day. I'm just looking for those folks. Like that that's the mindset. you can't look at it as how do I turn every single conversation into a sale? It's not what you're trying to do. What you're trying to do is you're trying to find the conversations that you can't have that will go somewhere, and they don't all need to turn into a sale. Like a conversation's a conversation where You might learn something, you might find something out. You might find out that three months from now is going to be a better time for them. You're building up your own pipeline. Like SDRs are trying to build pipeline for the AEs, right? The the the closers. The setters are trying to build pipeline for the closers. But the setters have got to build pipeline for themselves too. Like that guy that says not right now, like talk to me in three months. Maybe there's that's valid. That my response there is not to try to handle the objection and try to like f shoehorn this guy into a meeting right now.

Instead, I'm saying, okay, that no problem. I'm gonna put you down on my calendar, you know, for September or whatever. what changes between now and then? Like just help me get an idea so I can put some notes down. So the next time I talk, right? And then they'll tell you, like, we're building a new website, we're rebranding, we're doing this, we're doing that. Those are all valid concerns. and in to circle back to like how do I get through the hangup phase, it's like I'm just trying to get to that part.

And and it's and I'm trying to decide whether or not it's possible for me to get to that part. Sometimes, man, we call on a parallel dialer, like it just makes it so much more efficient, but there's a slight delay. Like there's like a one second delay but when the person talks before it patches you in. So in that time, if that person has decided I don't want to talk to a cold caller right now, and you introduce yourself and they say not interested in hang up, there's nothing I'm gonna do that's gonna change that. Like That's fine with me. I will just go to the next one. Like, they're probably gonna go back into the queue and I'll call them in two weeks and see if they're in a better mood.

Jordan Lally:17:14
I smile because you're 100% correct. And the latency between them picking up and you getting transferred is a bit it's annoying. I I know exactly what the fuck you're talking about. The question I want to propose is what is what what is the exact thing you say and how do you say it in that first three seconds? Do you tend to slow down? Do you talk at a normal cadence? Do you propose a question? Hey, is this John? Or Do you assume the person's name?

PWJ:17:45
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I mess around with different things, honestly. I I don't think that there's a right answer, is is the first thing I'll say. it doesn't really matter. I think that the tone and the confidence you project is the most important part. the things that I've been messing around with though, like 'cause I make calls myself for my business. I I mean I have to stay on the phone, it keeps me sharp. plus like if I'm running a cold calling agency and I don't know how to do cold calls, I think that's probably a pretty bad look.

I think that there's a lot of guys out there that run cold calling agencies that don't know how to do cold calls, but whatever, you know. couple of things that I mess around with. I do the i if you go on the LinkedIn feed and look at what everybody's advice is, which first of all is just bullshit. Like people are just looking for something to put on the feed that's gonna get a bunch of reactions or whatever, like never do this or whatever. I just ask if the person's name is correct. Hey, is this John?

Jordan Lally:18:18
Yeah.

PWJ:18:43
Like I w what's wrong with that? Like because I you do get wrong numbers. Like, hey, is this John? Yeah, who's this? would it ruin your day if I told you this was a sales call?

Jordan Lally:18:53
No, would it? What's up? That's exactly how the fuck I would answer that phone.

PWJ:18:59
Exactly. Because what I'm doing there is it's almost like a jab that I'm throwing out. Like, are you gonna be able somebody that I'm able to talk to? Like, maybe I get a little bit of a chuckle out of Maybe I get a little bit of reciprocity in terms of like they they're like, okay, all right, well what do you got? What do you got? That was a good open you know, like may like maybe whatever. And if it's and if it's not, if it's somebody that's just gonna be pissed, they'll probably decide that they're hanging up when I say, Hey, is this John?

Jordan Lally:19:27
Exactly. Look getting back to what you said earlier, my man, like if the if they're gonna hang up on you, it doesn't matter what the fuck you say, they're gonna hang up on you, you know?

PWJ:19:36
It doesn't matter. People like to think that there's like a silver bullet out there. There's like a set of instructions that you can follow that's gonna like make it so I I don't I I don't believe it. Like I don't I just don't think so. I like I said, I'm just trying to find the people I can talk to. And the people you can talk you your your mental health is gonna be way better. Your day's gonna go a lot smoother if you just change your mindset to like, let me just look for the people that are like willing to talk to me, and that's that's all it is.

Jordan Lally:20:03
Absolutely. Talk to us about like the the framework of the script that you you that you put through your your S VRs through. Sometimes words are hard. Is it like yeah, I guess we can continue to role play that, but like how just out of curiosity, how would that work? So you say the opener, I'm like, yeah, go ahead, like like what are you selling? Blah blah blah. Do you tend to ask questions to like assess like what the fuck is going on currently in their business, or do you like give a high level overview of like the promise, like a marketing?

Promise and then ask questions like how does that how does that

PWJ:20:35
Yeah. so pitching outboundless is very easy because it's not difficult to explain. It's not a hard concept. Like we do cold calling as a service. So that's what I tell people. yeah, would it ruin your day if I told you this is a sales call? No, sure, what do you got? All right, my name is Patrick Joyce. I'm the founder of Cold Calling Agency. We do cold calling as a service for our clients. just out of curiosity, are you guys doing any outbound sales right now?

So what I did there is I told them who I am, I told them what we do, and then I asked them, are you doing that already right now?

Jordan Lally:21:10
And I say yes, and I assume you ask like, Are you happy with the results? Or like, what does that process look like? What are you guys doing?

PWJ:21:16
Yeah, if you s yeah, yeah, immediately just if they say yes, cool, how's it going? 'Cause I know outbound's tough. They're and then they're gonna say, yeah, it's doing all right. Yeah, do you have your guys making any calls? Like are they doing any cold calling? Well yeah, I mean they could be doing more. have you ever thought about using an agency to boost the efforts of the cold calling, maybe take that off their plate so that they can focus on just closing the deals or whatever they're more

Jordan Lally:21:21
Right, right, right. Gotcha.

Jordan Lally:21:26
Yeah, yeah.

PWJ:21:46
high value activities are. You know, I I get into a conversation from there. But that's where the framework, the script and everything goes out the window. Once you start asking questions, you're gonna get different answers from people.

Jordan Lally:21:56
It it and that's why I like frameworks more than fucking verbatim scripts because as a veteran, you know that like shit shit's gonna go left, right, up, down, like there's no fucking fits all script every single time. But I I I think frameworks of like this is the intro s like and and the end goal of the framework, right? Like the framework, what is the goal of the intro? Get through the fucking intro. Cool. What is the goal of the next step? Figure out X. Okay, what what's the goal of the next step? Figure out Z type shit. You know what I mean?

PWJ:22:25
Yeah. Yeah. And if they say no, if they say no to my initial question, are you doing any outbound sales? is that something that you've thought about? Like is that is that even relevant for a business like yours to be doing any type of outbound sales? Because maybe it's not. Maybe it's like I said, they're like a low ticket PLG type company, a product led growth type of company where they're getting their users via marketing and they have t like some type of inbound flow. Like maybe I messed up and I put them on my list and I shouldn't have, you know?

Jordan Lally:22:26
Anyways.

Jordan Lally:22:54
That question you said is very powerful. I don't want to breeze over that. You said, would this even be relevant to you guys? I think a lot of time, especially myself, I'm I'm I'm aggressive. I'm not gonna lie. Like I just assume that people want the fucking product and like but they don't even need the fucking product. So I'm like barking at the wrong tree, so to say. But the when you ask that question, is this even relevant? It kinda like kind of selling themselves in a way. It's like, yeah, like this would be relevant. Not selling themselves, but it's like you're getting buy-in. And that's what you need.

You you don't want to just fucking pitch when they're not even open to it.

PWJ:23:26
And I and it's not even it's it's buy into the conversation. Right? Like I'm trying to get them to buy into talking to me is all I'm trying to do. I mean that's that's what we're doing. That's what the phone was invented for, is so that you could talk to other people, you know?

Jordan Lally:23:44
When you are prospecting out of curiosity, I guess what does that set up look like for the audience?

PWJ:23:51
Yeah, yeah, super I use a super simple setup for actually doing the work. So the dialer I use is called Trellis. it's very simple. It's it actually works on top of a Google Sheet. so I just have my Google sheet with the list of names and numbers and everybody's LinkedIn profile so I can go click on them if I want to. and I just run the Chrome extension on top of the sheet and just like let the dialer rip. getting there is a lot more complicated. Like putting the list together like is a I would say fairly sophisticated process. I don't know if may maybe complicated process is the better word there.

Jordan Lally:24:31
Mm-hmm. Wha what does that process look like?

PWJ:24:34
So most most of the time you see companies will go and they'll buy a Zoom info license and they'll just like import leads into their CRM directly out of Zoom Info. I've been doing that for years, years and years. I've done every iteration of that you can imagine, whether it's Zoom Info or it's Apollo or it's Sales Intel or it's one of these other like main database companies that has a bunch of filters on it.

A lot of it is shit. The data quality that's in there is not great. The filters on there are not great. They show you more results than there actually is. Like they'll show you, you know, 7,000 contacts or whatever. And then you if you actually page through all that and look at all of it, like a lot of it is not exact match to the the title that you wanted. it just yeah, it it ends up there ends up with a lot of junk in there. And like the problem is the ops person or the marketing person who

Jordan Lally:25:21
It's not.

PWJ:25:28
like paid for, you know, like went through the sales cycle with Zoom info and looked at the leads, didn't page through it and they like mass import and then they send it to the sales team and then they like check the box and go to leadership and say, yep, we we sent the sales team 7,000 leads and there's not 7,000 leads there. Half of it's garbage. what I do is I I have explained this process on LinkedIn. I've like set it up, you know, I think what I'm doing is unique. I don't mind telling people exactly what I'm doing because Honestly, if you can figure this out on your own, you probably like should not hire me. that was me. what I do is I start if I have a company list already, that's great. If the client says to me, like, these are the companies I want to go after, that makes it a little bit easier. If not, I've been using Crunch Base to find the company list because the industry tags on Crunch Base are really, really accurate. So what I mean by that is like SaaS companies. You cannot go on LinkedIn and search for SaaS companies because the company pages are the industry tag is self-reported, meaning you could be a software company that sells to the farming industry, and then you list your industry as farming. And there's no way that as a seller, I can find all the SaaS companies that they might be the perfect customer for me, but I'm not gonna click on farming as one of my filters, right? But Crunch Base actually has them tagged as SaaS companies. I don't know where they're getting the data from. I don't know if that's manual research. I don't know exactly how they're doing that. Maybe they're going through like Y Combinator or something and like tagging all the comp I don't know how they're doing it, but Crunch Base actually tags the companies as SaaS companies. So I start there. get my company list. Crunch Base lets on the plan that I'm on, lets me export 2,000 companies. So like I export my company list and then I upload it into LinkedIn Sales Navigator. Like you can go to accounts and like upload a list, and LinkedIn will match like company name website to a LinkedIn company page. then once I have it in LinkedIn, now I can use that account list as a filter on the leads. So I go to the leads filter and I

PWJ:27:53
you know, filter by only people that work at the companies that I have on my list. And then I can go and put in all my titles. So, you know, you can pick a geographic area. You can pick all your titles. even then, even then you still get a bunch of garbage that LinkedIn will tell you. Like if you put in VP of sales or whatever, it'll give you like board advisor and like random you know, like ri strategic advisor and these people that are like not that don't even work at the company that just have like a quote unquote advisor role, which basically means that they're like doing LinkedIn posts for them. so I I I did this is why I said it was complicated because it's a multi-step process. So I start in Crunch Base, I put it in LinkedIn, and then I go build my lead list and then I export that with Phantom Buster. So Phantom Buster will let me give it a sales nav link and then I can rip all of my contacts out into a CSV.

Jordan Lally:28:26
Bullshit.

PWJ:28:44
And then I put that in Google Sheets and start looking at it. So then I just sort by title and see like how accurate was this list. Again, it'll give me a thousand, fifteen hundred contacts and I'll have to delete three to five hundred of them because they weren't exactly the right title that I was looking for. so I'll manually scrub the list there. And then I go from my Google Sheet, I download the scrubbed version and I put it in clay. And then I can enrich all the mobile numbers and email addresses in clay.

Jordan Lally:29:12
Dude. Do you ever use excuse me, do you ever I say dude because I know fucking clay is expensive. We essentially build our internal clay we have through clawed code. But I was gonna

PWJ:29:23
Well, the difference is I have access to APIs from data vendors so I don't have to use clay credits on.

Jordan Lally:29:33
fuck yeah, dude. Okay, so you got it for the low? For cheap, I said? Hell yeah. Yeah, but keep rocking with clay, dude. Keep rocking with clay. But I'm not I'm not paying two K a month for that motherfucker. But I can do it for like a tenth of a cost in

PWJ:29:35
Yeah. Yeah.

PWJ:29:43
And they just went up too. It was I was paying them 500 bucks a month because I was using their credits occasionally. Like if I couldn't I was getting a really high fill rate on my lists, like an eighty, eighty-five percent fill rate on mobile numbers because I was using like five different data providers. And then once they went their pricing model changed and they went up and they like cut the credits amount, they like The amount of credits that you got per dollar went down by like f like forty percent or something. I I don't remember what all the numbers were, but it was like I went from twenty-five thousand credits to like five thousand credits. In like one day, it just all changed. So I whatever they did was bad. Like I in so I stopped spending as much money with them.

Jordan Lally:30:18
Yeah.

Jordan Lally:30:26
Yeah, no, I definitely don't don't blame you for that. Yeah, I would definitely say your process is sophisticated. Complex, I mean, if you're doing it for the first time it is, but definitely sophisticated. Crunch base, have you s there has to be scrapers out there, right? I know you said you're on the two K per month plan, but do you think there's scrapers out there that can get the companies?

PWJ:30:46
there are. They're just hard to use. It just may it's another step in the process. See, I'm trying to do it fast. I've got seven clients going at the same time. So like I I don't know. May maybe I could sit there and figure out how to use the scraper and like I tried it one time and like I'd rather just do it above board, honestly. Like like there's there's probably a way to do it. but it's it's complicated and it's glitchy and it's just I don't know. I just want it to be easy. You know what I mean?

Jordan Lally:31:04
No, you're good.

Jordan Lally:31:13
Absolutely. I'm all about the easy interface in this. Cool. All right, so we have the list. let's see.

Trying to think here. When your SDRs are booking these appointments, they're for the AE, they're not closing the account.

PWJ:31:31
That's right. That's right. It's either the AE or the founder or whoever they want to take the meeting. I'm just putting appointments on my client's calendar.

Jordan Lally:31:38
Got it. Okay, cool. And then they get paid per appointment that sits or per project, like per closed account.

PWJ:31:44
They they my reps get paid a flat rate per project. So I'm not doing anything per meeting or anything like that. I do it like that for a couple of reasons. One, I can't guarantee how many meetings one company is gonna get versus the other. it might be none. It it might because I'm working with early stage companies. They might not exactly be quite ready for it yet, but that's that doesn't mean that they still shouldn't pay an agency to go and figure that out for them. Like

Jordan Lally:31:49
So per close, okay.

PWJ:32:13
I'm just gonna get I'm just gonna get them so much validation on or or test their assumptions. I'm gonna be able to do it so quickly, like way faster than they would be able to on their own. but it's it it sort of evens it out. Plus, that allows me to attract the better talent. Like I tell if I tell a rep, like, look, man, you're gonna get paid the same no matter what happens, you just have to show up and do the work. As long as you show up and do the work and I pay on and I pay on time, That's gonna make it really attractive for all the best callers.

Jordan Lally:32:46
Absolutely. Are your clients paying the agency fee and then the SCRs are paid per commish essentially?

PWJ:32:55
Yeah, the the client pays the agency fee and then I I pay the reps out of that.

Jordan Lally:32:59
Got it. With the damn it. You say early stage. What's early stage? Like less than a million a year, less than a mil per year, or like less than a year in business.

PWJ:33:12
I don't really have a strict definition on it. Like, I'm looking at it as like they have some type of funding, like seed funding, or maybe they're just getting the ball rolling. you know, they're a little bit earlier than that. Or maybe they have some traction already and they're looking to build up. One of like one of the indicators for me is if they if it's like the founder and one sales rep, that's usually a good fit for me. Like if they have one AE that doesn't want or doesn't really have time or the resources to be able to do the prospecting themselves, that's the perfect scenario.

Jordan Lally:33:49
Okay, solid. Let's see. Looking forward over the next 12 months, what would you love to see happen with the company without boundless?

PWJ:33:57
Over the next 12 months, what I would love to see happen is for us to just continue to scale, just go through the roof. Like, we're a boutique agency still at this point, where meaning like, you know, we have a relatively low client roster compared to some of the other agencies that are out there. It allows us to give a white glove experience for our clients. Like, you know, we just we don't I don't have 70 clients that I'm trying to manage at the same time, but I do want to get there.

Like and and I know that it can't have worked for all the other agencies that have done it. I it just is a grind getting there. but yeah, that's I mean that's what I'm shooting for. I wanna I wanna scale this thing up and do it with excellence. Like I want to be known as like if you want cold calling, like Patrick is the guy. Outboundless is the place that you go if you want a good cold call.

Jordan Lally:34:49
Right on man. And where can they find you if they did want to participate in your services?

PWJ:34:54
outboundless dot com, you can book a meeting with me directly right there, or you can just reach out to me on LinkedIn. I put a ton of content out on LinkedIn about cold calling. just so you can see. Not that I have the biggest audience in the world or anything like that, but if you go check out my LinkedIn page, Patrick William Joyce, yeah, you'll see you'll see all my stuff there.

Jordan Lally:35:12
Solid. Patrick, thanks for joining us, man. Love the high-level conversation about cold calling. It's always it's always a blast hitting the phones. We'll have to have you back on in the next like 12 months to see how things are going. But again, thanks for joining us, brother. Awesome. Audience, talk soon.

PWJ:35:23
Yeah, let's do it.