Vi Wickam on Aligning Agency Incentives With Client Growth

Jordan Lally:0:00
Welcome back to the High Ticket AI Systems Podcast. Everyone, please welcome the one-on-one, Mr. Vi. Welcome Vi. Thank you for joining today, my friend. How are you doing?

Vi Wickam:0:09
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on your show, Jordan. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jordan Lally:0:12
Yes, sir. Absolutely. Now for those of us that aren't familiar with the name of the brand quite just yet, can you please give us a high level overview of exactly what you guys do and who you guys serve?

Vi Wickam:0:24
So I'm a Wizard of Ads partner, which Wizard of Ads is an international partnership that we do marketing. I do digital marketing in particular.

But we have partners who do everything from ad writing to radio production to media buying to digital to design. So, you know, we run the gamut of marketing services and you know we have specific principles that guide us, you know, which include always acting in the client's best interest. And, you know, I don't get paid more when they don't grow.

You know, I only get paid more if they make more, which is a distinguishing factor, especially in the digital world, where most marketing agencies take a cut of your spend. You know, and that that cut can be anywhere from 10% up to like 25% of your spend on Google Ads. And very often it's not even clearly disclosed to the client. You know, a lot of times they mark it up before they charge the client.

The client doesn't know what they actually spent on Google Ads, which is really a slippery slope. So we avoid all of that. We focus on being transparent and making sure that our clients know what they're doing and they know what we're doing and why we're doing it. And you know, that we're helping them grow their business.

Jordan Lally:1:55
Yeah, I think transparency is a key well, key component everywhere in life, but specifically between the agency and and client dynamic. Are all of these employees, it sounds like, W two where you have contractors that you work closely with?

Vi Wickam:2:02
For sure.

Vi Wickam:2:09
I have I have employees and contractors who work for me. And you know, I have about half and half. Half employees, half contractors who work for me. All of the Wizard of Ads partners are actually like their business, you know, they're all invested in that same outcome. There's nobody who's not a partner who's a Wizard of Ads partner, shockingly. but you know, some of us partners also have employees or contractors.

Jordan Lally:2:32
Ha ha ha.

Vi Wickam:2:39
Who we have close working relationships with, but I'm the buck stopper. You know, when it comes to my client relationships, it always comes down to me. Doesn't matter if one of my employees is responsible to me for something, ultimately I'm responsible to them.

Jordan Lally:2:57
I feel like it's it it should be that way, one hundred percent. Take full ownership, right? So hats off to you. When it comes to the pricing model, correct me if I'm wrong, is it a flat fee of just ad spend or is there a like a go for it.

Vi Wickam:3:01
I believe in that.

Vi Wickam:3:11
It it's it's a flat monthly retainer that adjusts annually based on their growth or shrinking. So if you know, we negotiate a monthly retainer at the beginning based on the scope of work, and the size of the business and those kind of factors, and what their expectations are, and then each year, if they've grown, we get a raise by the percent they grew by.

If they shrink, we get a we get a pay cut. So, you know, it is our interests are aligned, you know, whereas if we were charging them a percent of ad spend, which is kind of an industry standard, we would be incentivized to get them to spend more on ads. And, you know, in our current model, we're only incentivized to do things that help them grow their.

Jordan Lally:4:03
I think as a as an A player, as a business owner, everyone loves performance-based modeling. Whether that it's a base retainer plus like a percentage or base retainer and whatever the case is, I I think people should get paid for doing the work. I don't think 100% performance is, in my opinion, the smartest move to make as an agency owner. You take a lot of risk.

Vi Wickam:4:09
Absolutely.

Vi Wickam:4:17
Uh-huh.

Vi Wickam:4:27
Depends how good you are.

Jordan Lally:4:30
You have to make the right partnerships, right? I mean obviously if the partnerships you're making are with successful businesses and they're gonna succeed without you, then yes, take on that take on that risk. But if you're working with

Vi Wickam:4:33
That's right.

Vi Wickam:4:41
Well, you gotta cheat by choosing the right businesses to work with. If somebody's you know, when my incentive is to help them grow and I don't believe that they can make this business work, like I can choose to not take them on as a client, which is a reasonable decision.

Jordan Lally:4:58
Yeah. Definitely reasonable. Absolutely. speaking of clients, at a high level, do you have any like systems in place to acquire new clients or I guess how does that look for the company?

Vi Wickam:5:10
Well, right now I am doing what I do to pick up clients, which is appearing on a podcast. And I mean, I also have strategic relationships with other partners who refer business to me, but I am blessed to have a situation where I'm not hard pressed to have enough clients. It's the challenge is really having enough of me to go around.

And you know, being selective about what clients I choose to work with, which is that is a great place to be as a consultant.

Jordan Lally:5:45
No, absolutely. Would you consider yourself more of a consultant than an agency owner? Or how would you describe yourself?

Vi Wickam:5:52
So it it depends how you look at it, because as a digital guy, you know, it's really there's always execution required. So I'm not a traditional agency model, and strategy is critical and key to what I do. one of the differentiations that I have between me and many digital agencies is they are so focused on

Jordan Lally:6:02
Yeah.

Vi Wickam:6:21
tactics and execution only, that they forget that having a great strategy is what drives success. And you can have great execution without a good strategy and you don't go anywhere. So, you know, strategy comes first. You know, that alignment of what the client who the client is with what we're putting out there as messaging is absolutely critical if we don't have that kind of alignment on the messaging. alignment on that authentic view of who the client is, you know, we're really not, it doesn't matter how well we execute, we're not going to win. And I'm only playing the game to win. I'm playing the long game. It's a relationship game. It's it's all about creating long term success for these clients. And again, I cheat by choosing clients who are great operators because, you know, the best client for me is someone who is a great operator and really bad at marketing.

Jordan Lally:7:24
No exactly.

Vi Wickam:7:26
Because I can I can hammer that nail on the marketing side all day long and if they don't execute, it doesn't matter. I'm still screwed, right? Because my incentive is for them to grow.

Jordan Lally:7:39
Exactly, exactly. No, definitely wise words right there. Who would you describe like is is best suited for I guess your services?

Vi Wickam:7:48
So for me, you know, there are Wizard Rats partners that are of all sizes, but for me specifically, I generally work with owner-operated businesses that are in that three to fifty million dollar annual revenue ball ballpark size. And the general reason for that is that if they're smaller than 3 million, they probably don't have the revenue to sustain a strong digital effort the way that I want to do it.

And I don't want to work with somebody that I'm going to be a burden to, because if they don't have the revenue to sustain the advertising spend that's going to be required, or even my consulting fee, you know, that's I don't want that to be a problem. And very often, you know, you get much bigger than 50 million, and they're likely doing things like, you know, selling out to private equity, and I don't.

I don't want to work with private equity. I want to work with owner-operated businesses where there's somebody who can be responsible and make those decisions. And I don't want to work with commute committees where, you know, you know, I've got to like wait for them to discuss this for the next three weeks before we can actually move forward. I want to work with somebody who can be authoritative, make decisions, and move that brand down the line and do things that are bold. You know, the you know, you get too big and they get risk averse and they start being like, well, you know, we're gonna have to be very careful about that. And, you know, somebody who's not bold isn't a great client for me because I want somebody who's willing to put themselves out there in a powerful way. And you know, being bold means you're gonna offend some people and that's okay.

Jordan Lally:9:44
Well those those big risks that you're mentioning, that's how you take quantum leaps from not w not one to ten, but like one to fifty. You look at like a fifty X this one marketing play. So in full agreement with you there. I think I maybe I was over exaggerating, but like the quantum leap is is what I was trying to get at.

Vi Wickam:9:49
Right.

Vi Wickam:9:57
That's fifty X is big.

Vi Wickam:10:02
Yeah, no, like I want people who are ready to grow by multiples, you know, both that they have the desire and that they have the wherewithal to you know, to swing the hammer.

Jordan Lally:10:17
And it doesn't matter which industry you're vertical, just three to fifty.

Vi Wickam:10:20
So I generally work with, you know, like I said, owner-operated businesses. And the two general niches that I mostly work with are service businesses and product businesses. And the service businesses are generally local or regional. And the product businesses generally have some sort of e-commerce presence. So, you know, somebody who's a three million dollar brick and mortar, you know, store that has three or four locations. may be actually difficult to work with because you know their primary goal is driving foot traffic. And there are other Wizard of Ads partners who love to work in those kind of situations. But for me, if I'm dealing with product businesses, I really love e-commerce because I can measure and I can make those incremental improvements. And you know, we can you can really see the results. I, you know, I can say, hey, you know, Today your return on ad spend was 1.5. You know, six weeks from now it's 1.7. Six weeks later, it's 1.9, and we're we're moving that needle in the right direction. And you know, sometimes you'll see, Google made a change. We just dropped by, you know, from 3x to 2.5. Well, we're gonna have to make a change to adjust. So, you know, but you've got that clarity and you can make decisions relatively quickly.

Not as quickly as people think you can. They're like, well, we've been running the ads for a week. Why don't we have leads yet? Why why don't I have 50 sales? And I'm like, dude, I told you up front that it's gonna take three months before we have, you know, a campaign that's probably revenue positive. You know, so you gotta set those expectations that and they have to have the money to sustain, and again, this is why.

You get much smaller than 3 million, and it's likely that they don't have the revenue to sustain a three-month spend on digital. Or if they're doing mass media, you need a six to nine month spend before you're going to start seeing a positive ROI. You know, so you've got to have the money in the bank and the cash flow to be able to sustain a legitimate marketing effort.

Vi Wickam:12:40
And you know, if you think that that's five hundred dollars a month and in extra cash, I'm not your guy, right? You you need some guy that's like hungry and young and doesn't really know what he's doing yet, but he's working on it and he's smart, you know, like but I've been doing this for 30 years now. I know what I'm doing, I know my way around the, you know, around the gym, so to speak.

Jordan Lally:13:03
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I think what you're saying is really, really important. gosh dang it. Facebook ads, Meta, and Google ads, they're inverted, right? So typically whenever you launch a campaign, you'll achieve, as an example, stay with me, a five extra. Yeah. And then after a week, it's like four point five, you know, a few more weeks, it's like three. But Google, it's inverted. It starts out it's like low and it takes time to optimize.

Vi Wickam:13:17
on Facebook? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we've definitely seen that.

Yeah. Starts out terrible. It takes you like three months for for a campaign to really perform well. Yeah, and you know, I don't run Facebook like myself. I try to stay away from Facebook just because it for me that ads management interface is so painful that I just hate it. I really just hate it. And so

Jordan Lally:13:47
funny.

People would argue that Google's ads manager is way worse, but

Vi Wickam:13:54
Well, and I've been doing like I did my first Google Ads account when it was shopping123.com before Google bought that and turned it into Google Ads. So it was like 1997 or 98. so I've been in that interface for a long, long time. And so I think it's it's a much more intuitive interface than the Facebook interface, but like

Jordan Lally:14:07
Got

Jordan Lally:14:13
I'll make sense.

Vi Wickam:14:23
I can get in there sometimes. Clients talk me into helping them out with setting audiences in Facebook or stuff like that. I can do it. I just try to not spend any time in there at all.

Jordan Lally:14:35
Right, right. No. You stick to your shrinks, you know, and that's what makes a great organization. Like you put people in place that are significantly better than you at the thing, right? And that's how you really unlock trunk scale. in regards in regards to growth over the next twelve months, I know you said you wish you had more of you. Are in the back of your mind are you kind of thinking about growing the company or right now like you're totally cool with where you're

Vi Wickam:14:43
Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. For sure.

Yeah.

Vi Wickam:15:01
So I'm always looking at the future. And sometimes that future is a new product, sometimes that future is more clients. but you know, right now I would probably take on a couple clients that are the right clients, but I don't have a whole lot of room for more clients. I am also working on a couple of products that are top secret.

Jordan Lally:15:28
For sure.

Vi Wickam:15:29
but they're gonna be really cool launching in three to six months. you know, one of them is specifically for home service companies, the other one's more of a general product that'll be, you know, really for any business that's doing stuff online. you know, it's good to diversify in that that kind of regard, but the home service product I think is gonna be really big when I launch it.

Jordan Lally:15:55
Massive industry, so a hundred percent. on our first conversation, by you and I were actually both incorrect, but I was happy to be incorrect about the subject. We were talking about mythos or fable not being on that exact day. And it's so funny because on our initial call

Vi Wickam:15:58
Yeah.

Vi Wickam:16:06
All right, let's hear it.

Vi Wickam:16:10
yeah.

Vi Wickam:16:13
No, no, like Fable Fable launched as like watered down Mythos. It really did. You know? Yeah, the the the polymarket was was 7030 on on it the like Claude launching Mythos on June 9th. And and I was like, I don't know. And and I was I was saying that Mythos is too dangerous to be in the wild. And turns out that was also correct.

Jordan Lally:16:21
Yeah, it wasn't as good.

Jordan Lally:16:43
Exactly, they they took that crap down, dude.

Vi Wickam:16:43
You know, s so they they launched it on July ninth with it watered down. They they had substantial limits they put on it and the government still told them, That's still too dangerous. We're shutting that down.

Jordan Lally:16:51
Yeah.

Jordan Lally:16:58
I was so upset after playing with it for like three days I was like this is like almost godlike. I freaking love this this model. And of course they have to just It was awesome man, I'm not gonna lie, I got so much work done you know

Vi Wickam:17:07
Yeah. It was pretty tight.

Yeah. I mean I I I'm a big fan of Opus four point eight too, but

Jordan Lally:17:17
yeah. yeah. that that being said, you know, how do you see marketing, your position, being a consultant and a really badass marketer? How do you see that and AI coupling together? Like where do you see the advantages, the the disadvantages, all that fun stuff?

Vi Wickam:17:31
Hmm.

Well, it's it's a fun and kind of hassle at the same time. so where it's fun is I feel like I'm back in the dot-com boom. You know, like I lived through the late 90s doing tech then. And so from the first website I made in 1995 to, you know, I I knew people that went to work for, you know, dot-com companies and

Jordan Lally:17:39
Yes.

Vi Wickam:18:04
You know, I s rode on the plane next to the guy that did the coding for Alta Vista when you know that was one of the big search engines. And you know, there was so much optimism and so much opportunity and so many cool things going on. And then like everything started getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And you know, all of the the the like walled gardens that everything became, and it became much less of a Wild West. And the Wild West time was fun. It was a little scary. You know, and and we saw that kind of again. The Wild West opened up around like Onion Tour and and you know the dark web. But you know, there was like a new world of kind of private browsing and those kind of things that happened for a little while related to cryptography. And You know, that's also though like really a dangerous space. You know, you had the Silk Road and those kind of things that are like those are some bad dudes. You got Russian mob type people, and you know, you you know that if you put your money over there, it's probably just gonna disappear. You're probably gonna get nothing in return for that money because there's no human that you can find.

But the AI world is is a little bit like a re-creation, a regeneration, a new birth of the internet. but having been through this a couple of times before, I've I'm a little more skeptical than some of the people who are like, you know, I'm gonna AI everything. And, you know, like I know that it's a tool.

And it's as good as you deploy it, and it's as good as you prompt it, and it's as good as the code that you write with it, and that you understand those things. And that you can create a pile of crap just as quickly as you can create a well-written program that's going to be really cool and useful and and potentially change the world. And so it's so powerful and and

Vi Wickam:20:21
So many people think that this means, so you're just gonna do five times more things for me. And it's not, you know, like I'm not gonna pay you anymore, but you're just gonna deliver five times more things. And I'm like, and you can't actually do five times more things in the same amount of time because AI also takes time. It's just different time, and you have potential to deliver something that's dramatically better than you could have. So I've I've got my own cloud server running. I've I've got a Slack interface to it. I I write programs using SSH command line to it. you know doing program development, doing integrations with other platforms, pulling together disparate data sources, running analysis, all this kind of stuff that would be really hard and take a lot of time to do in In the pre-AI time. So, you know, built a dashboard for Service Titan, which is one of the two biggest platforms for home services, that pulls in Service Titan data, pulls in Google Analytics, pulls in Google Search Console, pulls in Google Ads, pulls in Google Business Profile, like all of these pieces of data and then and also their phone calls and analyzes, you know, transcribes all the phone calls that analyzes it.

Looks at all these different data sources and and then analyzes it and finds patterns. Now, like just having that data is really cool, but it's really easy to ask the wrong question. You know, if you're not asking a useful question of the data, you're not going to get a useful answer out of it. And this kind of brings me to the the biggest hassle around it, which is Having clients who are kind of AI novices and don't really understand marketing or programming. And they send me an email that says, Hey, I asked Chat GPT to look at our website and tell me everything that's wrong with it. And then they send me like a 14 page document. And I'm like, well, first of all, like 75% of this stuff's just not true. And, you know,

Vi Wickam:22:49
The other 25% we're actually already working on. You know, and it's just like these are not overnight efforts. This is something we've been doing for the last two years, and we're not done. We're gonna keep doing that because that's just the thing you gotta do when you're doing digital marketing. So, you know, the the assumption that everything the AI says is correct is where the biggest hassles come from, where, you know.

Jordan Lally:22:53
Right.

Vi Wickam:23:18
People put in a prompt that's something like, hey, look at my website and tell me what's what I need to change. And it doesn't have any context for that. It doesn't, you know, it's not like using the usability standards that Jacob Nielsen created, you know, what usability improvements might be useful to make on this website. You know, you're going to get a legitimately useful answer out of that.

Jordan Lally:23:28
Exactly.

Vi Wickam:23:47
Or using WCAG requirements for accessibility, please analyze my website and tell me what accessibility changes that we should make. Also a really useful query to run to the AI, a useful prompt. But if I just say, you know, what should I change on my website? You're gonna get a bunch of crap that's not that useful.

Jordan Lally:24:11
Yeah, absolutely. very, very, very true words right there. I think you have to take like a not a leadership approach, but context is everything. You have to be very, very specific with what you're asking. You can't just say, Hey, what's my website? It's gonna list everything that it thinks it's wrong, right? But if you like use this framework and let me know how like to optimize it best within this framework. Absolutely. Yeah.

Vi Wickam:24:21
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally.

Vi Wickam:24:33
Yeah.

Vi Wickam:24:36
For this specific thing, yeah.

Jordan Lally:24:40
One of the one of my colleagues said that AI is like eighty twenty. I'm like, okay, what do you mean? They're like, it's eighty percent excuse me. eight eighty twenty, yes, it is eighty twenty, but it's ten percent on the front end. So all of the information you know, all the context, you front Right, no, you're right. Right.

Vi Wickam:24:58
That was you and me last week. It's ten eighty ten. And I got that from Ryan Dice. So I will give credit where credit is due. Ryan Dice came up with the 1080 10 formula. He's brilliant. I'm a big fan. And he's a super nice guy.

Jordan Lally:25:08
Okay.

Jordan Lally:25:17
Solid, solid. Yeah, but you essentially know where I'm going with that. But yeah, in in when it comes to speed, AI is not to be

Vi Wickam:25:20
Yep.

Vi Wickam:25:23
but not everybody else here knows what the ten eighty ten principle is.

Jordan Lally:25:28
Do you want to elaborate? Go for it.

Vi Wickam:25:29
I will elaborate. So 1080-10 with AI means you got to do the 10% of the work up front. That 10% that you do up front makes all the difference of everything else that happens from it. So this means giving it that context that you were saying, Jordan. Like you've got to give the AI good context that's useful. You know, understanding enough context yourself so that you will know that when the answer comes out, you'll know whether it's true or not. I can't tell you how many times.

People are having AI do stuff. And the answer that comes out is wrong, but they don't know enough about what it's supposed to be to even know that it's off by a factor of five or ten, you know, because they're just like, well, the AI said, you know, it must be true. It's like, I saw it on the internet, so it must be true. So Abraham Lincoln told me I shouldn't believe everything that I read on the internet.

Jordan Lally:26:17
Exactly.

Jordan Lally:26:28
Absolutely. And the way that I can or were you gonna continue my mistake? Yeah. Yeah.

Vi Wickam:26:31
So that's the 10% up front. So I develop that, I do my own research, I get my own understanding, then I throw it into the AI with a thoughtful contextual prompt and let it chug on it and do the 80% of the work that's the grunt work. Because it's really good at crunching data and really good at crunching numbers. It's not really good at insight. And so you have to have that insight up front. That's your first 10%.

The last 10% is you have to have human validation. You know, don't put it out without having humans read it before it goes out because AI makes mistakes and it often makes wrong assumptions. And you you may have to put it back in at the front. You know, it may be that you do 1080 and you're like, crap, like there was stuff that I knew that I should have told it that I didn't tell it in the front end, pass it back.

You know, we're reprompting that. And like it's not unusual for me when I'm working trying to get the AI to do something that I'll have, you know, 17 or 25, you know, back and forths before I actually get it to do what I really wanted it to do on that first prompt. And and the better you train your AI, the less prompts it will take the next time. Because it will make assumptions that you didn't. even consider as possibilities. But if you're not paying attention and you don't have adequate context yourself, you will just let it run with those assumptions. And that may take you way off course.

Jordan Lally:28:14
One hundred percent. And the way that I like understand it is when you are going to company and you are trying to replace a part of your day-to-day job and you don't necessarily understand how to actually do the job well or fully. You're gonna train this novice that obviously knows way less than you and attempt to say, Hey bud, figure it out. It's not gonna know what to do because it has zero context what to do.

Vi Wickam:28:26
Uh-huh.

Vi Wickam:28:32
Sure.

Vi Wickam:28:43
Right.

Jordan Lally:28:44
So you as a business owner or professional need to understand the skill, gain the skill, acquire the skill and knowledge. So you can then train the AI better, which will obviously accelerate your growth, speed, execution, all.

Vi Wickam:28:51
Mm-hmm.

Vi Wickam:28:58
Totally. Totally. Yeah, and I would look at it like if you're wanting to write programs and you don't know how to think like a programmer, you're going to create a program that probably isn't especially efficient or well written. You know, which is kind of my my hesitance towards people that are vibecoding things and putting them out in the wild. Which it's really amazing. Like I I've got a couple of friends who are totally not coders.

And have vibe coded some things that seem to work pretty well. But I'm like, I would not put that out in the wild as you know, like this is a professional business to business or you know, whatever website that people are gonna be using. And I've not tested, I've not validated, I've not had customers test it and make sure that everything works, you know.

It's again there's an assumption. Well, the AI wrote the code, so it's probably good. And I know with my experience with Cloud Code that very often I'll get 10 steps down the way and we'll hit a roadblock and it'll say, I made an error in my assumptions in step three. I'm gonna need to recode everything from step three on to fix that assumption I made in step three. I'm like, Yep.

That I didn't tell you to do that, but you did that, and now we need to fix that. Yeah.

Jordan Lally:30:26
People say don't get mad at the AI. I swear if you hear me on the day to day, I am cussing out my AI. Like, why would you do this? Like we said X. Cloud, we said X. Why are you doing Y, bro? It is like a constant theme with this day. Like overall, like I love it, but sometimes it's like, dude, you're like, what are you?

Vi Wickam:30:40
Yeah.

No, it's it's amazing and it's powerful and it's still not perfect. It's not anywhere close to perfect. You know, I I had a conversation where I was doing market research for a client, and I it was probably a conversation that lasted, you know, 75 or 100 back and forths. And literally the same calculation assumption that I told it like three or four times, stop doing that, it's wrong. You have to do it this way.

Jordan Lally:30:49
It's

Vi Wickam:31:15
And this was Chat GPT, you know, probably six months ago, not Cloud today. But I with the online there's a lot of things I can do with Cloud Code that I couldn't do in that situation online. You know, this was before projects or you know, projects existed. It's before, you know, I had a custom, you know, cloud server where I have all the instructions and I can

Jordan Lally:31:21
Yeah, yeah.

Vi Wickam:31:43
make it save those instructions to the SOP every time I make a change, you know, and I can review the memories and tell it where those memories go and all that kind of stuff that just, you know, when you're just using the, you know, cloud.ai or chat GPT.com, there's a lot of things that you can do in a, you know, a custom code server that you couldn't do in that walled garden that is you know, their website.

Jordan Lally:32:15
Absolutely. Yeah. Let's see. Over the next twelve months, I know we talked about growth, but different note. yeah, you have the two projects coming up, huh? Damn.

Vi Wickam:32:24
Yeah, yeah. I I mean they're in progress. They're they're not coming up, but you know, it it's it's another thing when you've got new businesses to work on while you're doing your current business. You know, you gotta gotta spread your time carefully.

Jordan Lally:32:37
Yeah.

Jordan Lally:32:41
We love the challenge though, you know.

Vi Wickam:32:43
True. True fact.

Jordan Lally:32:44
Are you are you are you taking on I guess what is the reasoning behind that? Out of curiosity.

Vi Wickam:32:53
So developing products, part of the reason is because there's only so much of me to go around. And so I can only work with a certain number of clients. You know, 25 to 30 is really for my consultancy where I draw the line is, you know, if I if I have more than 25 to 30 clients, I'm not gonna be able to give them the individual attention I wanna give them. And I'm not looking to Have an agency where I'm working with 600 clients and none of them get to talk to me. You know, like there are it's nothing against people that are doing that. That's that's just a different business model. And to that end, developing products is a great way to leverage my knowledge, to lever leverage my expertise in a way that scales really easy.

Jordan Lally:33:46
No, absolutely. Like time is definitely constrained. But with products, it time is essentially limitless. You know what I mean? For the yeah, for the maybe that was a horrible way to say that, but I think you get the idea of what I'm saying. Exactly. Thank you. I am curious about the home service project. Without going into nitty gritty, is it like CRM, data analytics, or is it like a one of one thing that you've customed

Vi Wickam:33:51
Indeed.

Vi Wickam:33:54
Yep. Kinda.

Vi Wickam:34:01
Good enough.

Jordan Lally:34:16
like custom built because of the data that you have from working with clients.

Vi Wickam:34:21
No, it it's gonna be a it's gonna be a marketing product that allows them to to spend their their money more efficiently and make more money off of their investment in Google ads and bing ads and things like that. So, you know, without getting into any specifics, that's that's the direction of what it's going to do for them. It's gonna help them make it more informed, better decisions, and to make more money off the money they spend.

Jordan Lally:34:36
That's amazing. We'll keep it there.

Yeah yeah.

Jordan Lally:34:51
No, I like that. We'll yeah, we'll keep that there. Thank you, Vi. that being said, where can they find you if someone is, you know, wanted to chop it up about marketing or possibly work with.

Vi Wickam:35:01
Well, you can go to Google and you can type in Vi Wickham, and I'm really easy to find. You can also search for Wizard of Ads Online, and I'm also easy to find there, or you can search go to wizardofadsonline.com and you know that and seven other domain names will get to me.

Jordan Lally:35:23
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Vi. I wish you the best of sex with the best of success with the company and audience. Thanks for joining us.

Vi Wickam:35:30
Thank you, Jordan. It's been a pleasure pleasure chatting with you today. Thank you.

Jordan Lally:35:35
Is there?